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Rolling up the Sleeves



 
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E_Smith
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 19, 2020 11:41 am    Post subject: Rolling up the Sleeves Reply with quote

Hello all!

I'll get right to my question, as I can't think of any lengthy intro to type out. If you guessed that this thread was about sleeves, you'd be correct.

My question(s) is (are): What's the science behind mouthpiece sleeves? Do many of you use them? Do all sleeves fit all trumpets? Should a young player such as myself buy products like this?

Well, that's all I've got. I should say that I'm in no hurry to get any new gear right now, as I've been having fun with my new MP: an Olds 3C. (My director suggested that I make the switch)

Thanks
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cheiden
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 19, 2020 11:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In short, sleeves allows for some additional optimization that many don't seem to want or need but that in some instances delivers big improvements. I've got a Schilke Symphony that fits poorly in my Bach and playing quality is problematic. With sleeves I was able to find a particular sleeve that produced a clearly much better response.
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Turkle
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 19, 2020 12:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I personally tried mouthpiece sleeves and I hated them. It was likely a mental thing. Like, "oh, I missed a note, better try a new sleeve." I just couldn't get it dialed in where I want it. It was just one more thing to fuss with.

I ended up selling them to someone that loves them! So hey, not everything works for everyone.

They're certainly cheap enough, so it's easy to buy them and if you don't like them you can sell them quickly, there's demand out there.

And re: the science, here you go: https://stomvi-usa.com/learn-about-the-annulus-gap/

Good luck.
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JayKosta
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 19, 2020 12:43 pm    Post subject: Re: Rolling up the Sleeves Reply with quote

E_Smith wrote:
...
My question(s) is (are): What's the science behind mouthpiece sleeves? Do many of you use them? Do all sleeves fit all trumpets? Should a young player such as myself buy products like this?
...

---------------------
I wouldn't worry about sleeves at this point. Especially if there aren't any problems that seem specifically related to using a different mouthpiece. And if your teacher / band director has not mentioned any problems with your playing.

And NO, sleeves won't help your high range.

I'd concentrate on doing a simple test of playing various major scales, the tone quality of each note should be similar (and sound good) - not some notes fuzzy and some clean. At your 'playable upper range', the notes should be distinct, and not 'slide into' each other.

For someone who can ALWAYS 'play the right note at the right time', then being concerned about small nuances that might be related to gap becomes a consideration.

Jay
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cheiden
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 19, 2020 12:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Turkle wrote:
I personally tried mouthpiece sleeves and I hated them. It was likely a mental thing. Like, "oh, I missed a note, better try a new sleeve." I just couldn't get it dialed in where I want it. It was just one more thing to fuss with.

I ended up selling them to someone that loves them! So hey, not everything works for everyone.

They're certainly cheap enough, so it's easy to buy them and if you don't like them you can sell them quickly, there's demand out there.

And re: the science, here you go: https://stomvi-usa.com/learn-about-the-annulus-gap/

Good luck.

I confess that I don't like that my particular mouthpiece seems to fit too loosely in the sleeve. I don't want it to rotate when I play. I've played other peoples sleeved mouthpieces and the sleeves seem to fit snugly enough that I hardly notice that it is sleeved.

My teacher had a favorite mouthpiece sleeved. After he determined the optimal sleeve he had it soldered on and the hex shaved down. It's almost impossible to tell it was ever sleeved.
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adagiotrumpet
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 19, 2020 3:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think gap is important and the best way to find optimal gap is with sleeves. The only issue I have is the fact that on some mouthpieces, I have used the lefreQue with good results and I wonder if a sleeved mouthpiece would have a negative effect on the performance of a lefreQue.
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HERMOKIWI
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 19, 2020 5:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The trumpet world got along without sleeves for centuries and produced a long list of incredible players. You don't need sleeves to be a great player.

Disclosure: I have a full set of Bob Reeves sleeves and several Bob Reeves mouthpieces cut for sleeves. I never experienced any significant change by using sleeves. If others report a significant change then good for them. I'm just reporting my own experience.
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Christian K. Peters
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 19, 2020 8:26 pm    Post subject: Rolling up the sleeves Reply with quote

Hello all,
Welcome to the OP for joining the TH. I used sleeves to adjust the gap on my receiver with success. When I changed mp's, the gap was good and I found that the sound of the one piece mp, was more stable. I have learned that others found the same attribute. The sleeves shank was deadened by the O ring. I still will use the sleeves on horns where the receivers are worn past original specs...Until I get the horns, receiver fixed. I played an Olds 3C for 4 years when I was younger. I think they are too small. I personally would find a Schilke 13 or a Bach 3C.
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adagiotrumpet
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 20, 2020 7:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

HERMOKIWI wrote:
The trumpet world got along without sleeves for centuries and produced a long list of incredible players. You don't need sleeves to be a great player.

Disclosure: I have a full set of Bob Reeves sleeves and several Bob Reeves mouthpieces cut for sleeves. I never experienced any significant change by using sleeves. If others report a significant change then good for them. I'm just reporting my own experience.


And many symphonies by famous composers use to be performed with trumpets that had no valves. The world got along without "brass boat anchors" for centuries too. I have no use for trumpets that need to go on metalurgical diets. That doesn't mean we shouldn't have them. You don't need "brass ballast" to be a good player, but there sure are some great players that sound terrific on these horns.

There is a strong consensus that gaps matter. Sleeves seem to be the best way to dial in a gap. DISCLAIMER: While I have used mouthpieces cut for sleeves in the past and still have those mouthpieces and sleeves, I haven't used them in probably 40 years. I do , however, consider them a legitimate tool for playing trumpet.
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cgaiii
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 20, 2020 10:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

adagiotrumpet wrote:
I think gap is important and the best way to find optimal gap is with sleeves. The only issue I have is the fact that on some mouthpieces, I have used the lefreQue with good results and I wonder if a sleeved mouthpiece would have a negative effect on the performance of a lefreQue.

Had to look up the lefreQue. My thought is that a sleeve would not affect it much since it would probably touch the mouthpiece above the sleeve.
If you are looking for a sleeve to adjust gap, you can have Jim New fit your mouthpiece with a Gap Modulator. http://james-r-new.com/accessories/gap-modulator-50.html
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Jonak5634
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 21, 2020 10:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wouldn’t mess with sleeves. Not unless down the road you try a bob reeves mpc for a lead piece or whatever and it is cut for sleeves. If your mouthpiece doesn’t wobble in your receiver, I’d say you don’t need one. Even if it was a bit wobbly, I don’t think it’d be worth the 100$ or more to get a mouthpiece with a sleeve.
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Jonak5634
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 21, 2020 11:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wouldn’t mess with sleeves. Not unless down the road you try a bob reeves mpc for a lead piece or whatever and it is cut for sleeves. If your mouthpiece doesn’t wobble in your receiver, I’d say you don’t need one. Even if it was a bit wobbly, I don’t think it’d be worth the 100$ or more to get a mouthpiece with a sleeve.
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kehaulani
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 21, 2020 11:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whose sleeves are you folks talking about? Using all the same or does this represent a variety?
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JayKosta
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 21, 2020 11:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kehaulani wrote:
Whose sleeves are you folks talking about? Using all the same or does this represent a variety?

-----------
I wasn't addressing any particular variety of sleeves or other method of 'gap measurement or adjustment' - only that unless something is obviously wrong, the value of tinkering with mouthpiece gap doesn't have a good likelihood of giving noticeable improvement.

Yes, changing the gap can make some difference if carefully tested and compared, but how much improvement will result from the difference?

Jay
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HERMOKIWI
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 21, 2020 1:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

adagiotrumpet wrote:
HERMOKIWI wrote:
The trumpet world got along without sleeves for centuries and produced a long list of incredible players. You don't need sleeves to be a great player.

Disclosure: I have a full set of Bob Reeves sleeves and several Bob Reeves mouthpieces cut for sleeves. I never experienced any significant change by using sleeves. If others report a significant change then good for them. I'm just reporting my own experience.


And many symphonies by famous composers use to be performed with trumpets that had no valves. The world got along without "brass boat anchors" for centuries too. I have no use for trumpets that need to go on metalurgical diets. That doesn't mean we shouldn't have them. You don't need "brass ballast" to be a good player, but there sure are some great players that sound terrific on these horns.


Ridiculous exaggerated overstated analogy.
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Turkle
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 21, 2020 2:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I mean, it's obvious that all trumpet modifications, from heavy valve caps to mouthpiece sleeves to rubber washers to valve guides or whatever other goofy things people have come up with, they work for some people and some trumpets, and don't work for other people and other trumpets. This is not a bad thing. It's just the way the world works.

I found mouthpiece sleeves to be totally counterproductive for my own playing. It's obvious that they work very well for some other people. I don't understand why that's hard to grasp for some people!

(I subscribe to my own brands of magic beans - I love playing with heavy valve caps, metal vs. plastic valve guides, removable braces, and other mods. They don't even work on all of my trumpets - some respond to changes and others don't. So you just have to try and see what works for you and your setup.)
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giakara
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 21, 2020 2:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Today I was testing my TL6-1A(one of the two favorite Lawlers among ten horns I have try until now)to find the right sleeve , I ended up with a #3.5, it fits great and slotting,tuning and responce is great , with the #4 it was right but not perfect with the #3 it was the WORST horn I ever played.....for me sleeves system is the way yo find your favorite horn sooner .

Regards
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JayKosta
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 21, 2020 3:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

giakara wrote:
Today I was testing my TL6-1A(one of the two favorite Lawlers among ten horns I have try until now)to find the right sleeve , ...

----------------------------------------
Are you able to describe how the TL6-1A plays when using a standard conventional 1-piece mouthpiece?

Jay
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giakara
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 22, 2020 1:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes is very easy becose I have the same set of mpcs I use for my TL5-1A in one piece version (screw rim both sets but one set is cut for sleeves and the other is one piece), for the test I pick up a Reeves Purviance P9 one piece (#4 sleeve size) and one with #4 sleeve and the results was the same,the mpc was good but not perfect but when I put the #3.5 sleeve everything was perfect, better pitch, better slotting specially in high registers, the sound is more compact and the general feel better.
But in my other horn a TL5-1A -that is the best horn in every aspect I ever try and I have try more than hundreds different pro/boutique horns the last twenty years- I use the standard #4 sleeve and when I use a P9 one piece and a P9 with a #4 (actually the same pieces) the one piece has better general feel and a little fuller sound but when the horn requires a different sleeve than the standard #4 the difference withe the proper sleeve is huge.
I hope to help you becose me English are not so good.

Regards
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