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playing high with large front teeth, is it possible


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Jaw04
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 02, 2020 11:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What is the difference between vibration and oscillation?
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JayKosta
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 02, 2020 12:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jaw04 wrote:
What is the difference between vibration and oscillation?

------------------
There probably is a difference in precise technical usage (I didn't bother to check Wikipedia). But for casual trumpet playing discussions, I understand them to have the a similar meaning - and how the word is used in the context of what is being discussed.

Some people might think of 'oscillations' as being more 'controlled' / 'regular' / 'synchronized' / 'predictable'. Perhaps like a sine wave pattern.
And vibrations having a potential of being more 'random' or 'uncontrolled' movement / pattern.

For useful trumpet embouchure application where a good predictable sound is to be produced, the lips must move (basically quickly opening and closing the air flow) in a steady manner. That quick opening and closing of the lip tissue (the aperture) is usually called lip vibrations (I don't recall the term oscillations being widely used). That hopefully results in a 'standing sound wave' that oscillates inside the trumpet tubing to produce the note.

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Robert P
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 02, 2020 5:02 pm    Post subject: Re: playing high with large front teeth, is it possible Reply with quote

tombrown1 wrote:
debruintrump wrote:
This week I was thinking and wondering if there are players with large front teeth who can really play well in the high register. Can you name some ?

For quite a long time I have the feeling that with larger front teeth it is more difficult to let the lips vibrate easily. Especially the upper lip.

High note guys seem to have rather average or small front teeth and some very famous players did even make their front teeth shorter.

What do you think ?

There are some notable exceptions of players with great range and teeth that hang down some:

Caleb Hudson
Tom Hooten
David Bilger

I'm not familiar with the larger body of their work, since the topic is playing high how high have you heard any of these guys play? With a quick Youtube search I find examples of their playing that fall in the range of typical classical literature, nothing I would call extreme upper register playing. They're all superb players.

Do you think any of them could play the lead book in a strong pro stage band?


Quote:
The elephant in the room is there's no going back if you file them down. So the question is how much does it hurt you. That's almost impossible to say. Trumpet's hard enough without having to fight through overhanging front teeth. But then again, is there harm in filing?

I'm in no place to answer that, and I don't know anybody who is. Have to admit I'm thinking about trying it though...

Best,

Tom

These days with modern materials and bonding techniques I imagine you could add length back to your teeth.

As far as anyone with experience on the topic I'll raise my hand.

I had my maxillary central incisors - upper front incisors shortened to match the length of the lateral incisors - those right next to them. It made an immediate change for the better as I theorized it would. It was part of quest I was on to rectify embouchure dysfunctionalities I'd long struggled with. I also made various changes in my embouchure mechanics but I feel confident that shortening those teeth allowed the chops to respond in a way they wouldn't have otherwise.

I'm not advising anyone to do what I did but it absolutely helped me.
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Last edited by Robert P on Mon Feb 03, 2020 5:42 am; edited 1 time in total
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TrpPro
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 02, 2020 8:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In my experience, it's never about the teeth whether they are big, small, crooked, etc. But I will concede that it is very easy to blame a lot of deficiencies in the embouchure on the teeth.

What needs to be done is to learn how to blow the horn. I like to think that there are a lot of ways to play the horn, but only one way to blow it. This is the first domino that should be addressed by every student. Once accomplished, and it shouldn't take very long, it will clear up many physical issues about trumpet playing that otherwise can be very distracting and lead the player down paths that can be very frustrating.
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tombrown1
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 02, 2020 9:31 pm    Post subject: Re: playing high with large front teeth, is it possible Reply with quote

Robert P wrote:
tombrown1 wrote:
debruintrump wrote:
This week I was thinking and wondering if there are players with large front teeth who can really play well in the high register. Can you name some ?

For quite a long time I have the feeling that with larger front teeth it is more difficult to let the lips vibrate easily. Especially the upper lip.

High note guys seem to have rather average or small front teeth and some very famous players did even make their front teeth shorter.

What do you think ?

There are some notable exceptions of players with great range and teeth that hang down some:

Caleb Hudson
Tom Hooten
David Bilger

I'm not familiar with the larger body of their work, since the topic is playing high how high have you heard any of these guys play? With a quick Youtube search I find examples of their playing that fall in the range of typical classical literature, nothing I would call extreme upper register playing. They're all superb players.

Do you thing any of them could play the lead book in a strong pro stage band?


Quote:
The elephant in the room is there's no going back if you file them down. So the question is how much does it hurt you. That's almost impossible to say. Trumpet's hard enough without having to fight through overhanging front teeth. But then again, is there harm in filing?

I'm in no place to answer that, and I don't know anybody who is. Have to admit I'm thinking about trying it though...

Best,

Tom

These days with modern materials and bonding techniques I imagine you could add length back to your teeth.

As far as anyone with experience on the topic I'll raise my hand.

I had my maxillary central incisors - upper front incisors shortened to match the length of the lateral incisors - those right next to them. It made an immediate change for the better as I theorized it would. It was part of quest I was on to rectify embouchure dysfunctionalities I'd long struggled with. I also made various changes in my embouchure mechanics but I feel confident that shortening those teeth allowed the chops to respond in a way they wouldn't have otherwise.

I'm not advising anyone to do what I did but it absolutely helped me.


Caleb is a piccolo specialist, and all 3 can play Brandenburg 2.

I'm very interested in your procedure. Care to share any more details? Cost? How much were they shortened? Specific benefits?

Best,

Tom
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Robert P
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 03, 2020 6:02 am    Post subject: Re: playing high with large front teeth, is it possible Reply with quote

tombrown1 wrote:

I'm very interested in your procedure. Care to share any more details? Cost? How much were they shortened? Specific benefits?

Best,

Tom

I had a dentist at a local mall take off the first little bit, maybe a mm or so. It was a number of years ago, I'm sure it was under $50 at the time. After concluding there were no obvious negative results when it came to playing and it seemed like things were actually a little better, I did the rest myself with an emery board.

The most immediately obvious benefit was that notes spoke more easily, playing loud was easier - I had to recalibrate a bit regarding how much effort I needed to put into a note for the volume I wanted.

When I first did it I ran into a bit of an issue where when I went to play higher the notes would sometimes oddly and randomly turn into a strangled duck sound, but that went away. I guess my embouchure adjusted to the extra available tissue.

I've made other changes as well, moved my placement more to the center than it used to be, completely reworked the mechanics of how I play, how I address the mouthpiece. But I feel like the teeth were a central stumbling block and changing them made other changes possible.

Where I was as far as range at the time I first did it, I could get to high C and D but it never felt solid and sure - everything over the staff felt iffy and insecure despite endless hours of range-building exercises.

Now everything over my entire range feels better and I can knock the crap out of G, Ab, A. Dub C's make an appearance more and more frequently. If you had told me then that an Ab wouldn't be any big deal to hit, I'd have regarded you as full of it. That kind of range was absolutely outside the realm of reality to me, I'd never experienced even a high C that felt anchored, stable and secure, like I really owned the note.
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Last edited by Robert P on Mon Feb 03, 2020 11:14 am; edited 2 times in total
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MF Fan
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 03, 2020 9:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Steve Reid is a working pro (Maynard, Duke Ellington, Brian Setzer, etc.) that has a lot of experience manipulating teeth for the sake of upper register efficiency. He addresses it in this highly entertaining interview.

http://thebrassjunkies.libsyn.com/steve-reid-episode-59
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cheiden
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 03, 2020 1:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MF Fan wrote:
Steve Reid is a working pro (Maynard, Duke Ellington, Brian Setzer, etc.) that has a lot of experience manipulating teeth for the sake of upper register efficiency. He addresses it in this highly entertaining interview.

http://thebrassjunkies.libsyn.com/steve-reid-episode-59

I had the pleasure of playing with Steve for a time in a couple of bands back before he relocated to Florida. I heard those teeth stories first hand over pitchers of Guiness after rehearsal.

Steve's pretty much always entertaining. Great guy.
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John Mohan
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 03, 2020 3:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jaw04 wrote:
What is the difference between vibration and oscillation?


A vibration is a specific type of oscillation.
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kramergfy
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 03, 2020 6:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I too naturally have a short upper lip and large front teeth. Louis Dowdeswell is a good example of someone in this camp with an incredible upper register.

I ended up filing my front teeth little by little over a 6 year span, and it helped me immensely. My mouthpiece placement went higher, my sound opened up, and my registers connected. I can’t recommend someone over the internet to do the same, as you can really damage your teeth, etc. Be intelligent and see a specialist if you can.
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Robert P
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 05, 2020 7:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MF Fan wrote:
Steve Reid is a working pro (Maynard, Duke Ellington, Brian Setzer, etc.) that has a lot of experience manipulating teeth for the sake of upper register efficiency. He addresses it in this highly entertaining interview.

http://thebrassjunkies.libsyn.com/steve-reid-episode-59

Excellent, enjoyed it.
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Robert P
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 05, 2020 11:20 pm    Post subject: Re: playing high with large front teeth, is it possible Reply with quote

JayKosta wrote:
Lionel wrote:
...
Only the top lip vibrates. Not as your post says "both lips". There's an easy proof here. Because if both of your lips did vibrate, then how the hell could both maintain the same identical pitch at the same time? Couldn't happen. In fact during those cases where the lower lip actually does interfere and start vibrating we call these unwanted notes the most unpleasant "wolf tones".
...
So only your upper lip vibrates the air column. Granted it may feel like both chops vibrate but this is because the lower lip feels the air oscillate too.
...

-------------------------------
I don't understand how it is possible for the bottom lip to not vibrate AT ALL.

It isn't correct as demonstrated above by video evidence and anyone who watches their own lips in a visualizer, but I wonder if Lionel - who hasn't acknowledged this - is going to stop promoting nonsense or carry on undeterred.
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MF Fan
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 07, 2020 7:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There are variations between players in how many aspects of playing the trumpet work, e.g. use of tongue arch, mechanics of articulation, etc. My personal experience has been that the top lip does the vast majority of the vibration. If I free-buzz then put my finger on the bottom lip, the buzz continues. That said, I believe the surface of the lower lip does vibrate in sympathy with the top.

As far as objective observation goes, this is a good look at what's going on inside the mouthpiece for this player:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IvYmX-frcBI
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Robert P
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 07, 2020 5:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MF Fan wrote:
There are variations between players in how many aspects of playing the trumpet work, e.g. use of tongue arch, mechanics of articulation, etc. My personal experience has been that the top lip does the vast majority of the vibration. If I free-buzz then put my finger on the bottom lip, the buzz continues. That said, I believe the surface of the lower lip does vibrate in sympathy with the top.

Some thoughts on that - free buzzing is very different than what happens when actually playing. However merely touching the lower lip isn't synonymous with cutting off the vibrations of the lower lip. When you're playing the mouthpiece is touching both lips.

Betcha when you touch your lower lip it alters the nature of the buzz and if you were to fashion some kind of wood or plastic piece shaped so that it does pin the lower lip in such a way as to restrict it from vibrating altogether, you'll find it does have a buzz killing effect. You can achieve something approximating this by taking two or three fingers and pinning the lower lip. You're definitely going to impact whatever buzz you get without doing it.

The assertion that only the top lip vibrates is simply wrong.
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 22, 2020 3:01 am    Post subject: Re: playing high with large front teeth, is it possible Reply with quote

debruintrump wrote:
This week I was thinking and wondering if there are players with large front teeth who can really play well in the high register. Can you name some ?

For quite a long time I have the feeling that with larger front teeth it is more difficult to let the lips vibrate easily. Especially the upper lip.

High note guys seem to have rather average or small front teeth and some very famous players did even make their front teeth shorter.

What do you think ?


Google photos of players like Fanddis,Doc,Bergeron,the entire section of Lincoln center, Baptist,Dimartino,Kim,Glow and numerous other Jazz/commercial players from the past until today and check the smiles and the two front teeth.

Regards
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Young Man with a Horn
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PostPosted: Sun May 10, 2020 4:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Louis Dowdeswell has huge front teeth. His high register seems to be pretty decent.
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