Valves Sticking Only While Playing

[Phoenix864]

Hi all,

I recently purchased a used Larson Brasswerks XK C trumpet. After receiving the horn I gave it a good cleaning, fully disassembling both the horn and the pistons. However, after reassembly, both the second and third valves continually stick while playing (the first valve works just fine). The valves work fine cycling them while not playing, but as soon as I start playing they begin hanging up on the upstroke.

The horn is perfectly clean, I have used copious amounts of Ultra-pure valve oil, and I have removed and adjusted the pistons numerous times. At this point I'd usually get a second opinion from a tech, but with the state of COVID-19 in my area I'd prefer to sort this out at home if possible.

A few oddities I noticed:

When I received the horn the top caps/valve stems for valves 2 and 3 appeared to be flipped (ie the cap marked '2' was on valve 3 and vice versa). I switched them back during reassembly. This horn has a PVA, so each valve stem has a different height of pads.

After switching them back, the 3rd valve seems to have a 'vacuum' fit - when inserted, the valve pops into position and does not rock side to side slightly, like valves normally do. When attempting to remove the valve it feels like I have to overcome a vacuum before the valve pops out. I have never felt this much resistance when removing a valve.

I would appreciate any recommendations on what to try next. Though I would prefer not to, if necessary I can clean the valves again and try Hetman valve oil to see if it makes a difference.

Thanks.

[Beyond16]

I know all about this problem from experience. It is perplexing. I thought with my background in physics and engineering and a lifetime of tinkering I could figure it out, but no. I am stumped. I have plenty of vintage horns, so I finally sold the troublesome one and switched an unaffected one (same model though).

I am a beginner and play mostly scales. I can play a couple quickly and easily, so the valves get a lot of action. This probably exposes the problem more than normal music would.

I tried to study the problem by finding how to reproduce it reliably. It happened with a C major scale. The horn was flawless and clean in every way. But a certain note would result in the dreaded slow upstroke every time (but only after a couple of minutes of continuous playing). If I play just the two notes involved, it works normally. But playing the 3 note sequence would reproduce the problem. I don't know exactly what triggers it. Apparently a combination of horn temperature, proceeding couple of notes, and the alignment of the moons of Saturn.

I thought the valve might have a resonance at a certain note that interferes with its movement, but this idea doesn't fit with all the symptoms.

The only real progress I have made into understanding the problem is that the normal and unavoidable small amount of sideways force when pressing the valve is a factor. This is because of the following experiment: Press the valve down. While down, put a fairly large sideways force on the valve cap. Now release. This resulted in the slow upstroke for me. So I think the small unavoidable sideways pressure on the valve cap may be squeezing the oil so that it is no longer completely distributed around the valve. But this doesn't explain why one horn is affected, while a different horn of the same model is not.

Another factor may be soft valve springs. After playing with soft valve springs, I can't enjoy playing a horn with stiff valve springs. So at the moment I play only Olds. I have several Olds with soft valve springs and reliable valves.

My guess is that the valve oil is a factor. I have many types and have not compared them carefully. Right now I am using the low cost Brasswind valve oil with good results. This oil works well in vintage horns, but becomes too thick for the tight valves of a newer Kanstul after a few days of storage.

[HaveTrumpetWillTravel]

I have one horn that does this. I did try the "toothpaste" trick (which some here regard as a highly dangerous lapping methods and others as essentially a more intense cleaning) and it helped. I also realized some of it is related to angle--probably the last person played with a different angle. I found if I played left handed it never stuck. With the cleaning and a different valve oil and playing in it improved and is not a problem anymore. This is a newish trumpet with stainless valves.

This is a longstanding dilemma on here. Some valve problems resolve themselves or may even be part of "break in" on a trumpet and others signal a fatal flaw in the instrument that may not resolve even with extreme efforts to fix them. If the horn has any kind of warranty, I would return it.

[A.N.A.Mendez]

Take it to a good tech.

Possible issues

Build up in valve cases , you tech has a "hone" that can clean this without damage.

The valve has a slight distortion from being dropped or bumped.
Your tech has a special valve mandrel to fix minor issues.

Distorrtion at top or bottom of casing.
Your tech will have a special mandrel the exact size of your valve that is used to repair minor distortions in the casing.

Party on......
_________________
"There is no necessity for deadly strife" A. Lincoln 1860

☛ "No matter how cynical you get, it's never enough to keep up" Lily Tomlin☚

[mdarnton]

I would wait for a real tech to respond here. My first horn was a new Mendini with sticky valves that I got going, but I would never do the things I did on my current Getzen 907 and I think that a certain amount of horn respect is called for here. In your case, I'd play something different until you can get the horn to an expert.

[OldSchoolEuph]

I have my suspicions of what happened, but it is just a list of places to start. There is no way to diagnose a situation like this remotely. The horn needs to be examined by someone with the experience to run through a list of suspects and see what the observations from that point to for further investigation.
_________________
Ron Berndt
www.trumpet-history.com

2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20

[Speed]

I've had this happen with a used trumpet. Ultimately the problem was solved by cleaning the tubes that connect the valves, i.e., the tubing within the valve block. YMMV.

Take care,
Marc Speed

[JayKosta]

[John Mohan]

You are likely to be pushing the valves with a little bit of lateral force when you are playing. Try to be sure to push them straight down. A thicker oil might help. Having the cylinders worked on by a tech might be what you have to do.

[Crazy Finn]

[trpthrld]

As mentioned above, it could be the valves are a bit worn down from use. The same thing started happening on my main horn last year.

Had Josh Landress take a look at it, and he's who told me they were beginning to wear. I've played that horn daily since Sep. 1998 with only two days off, so his diagnosis made sense.

I had been using Tromba T-2, and he suggested I try some slightly thicker T-1. I did, and have had no problems since.

Experiment with thicker oils and maybe one will work the best for you. My only suggestion on that is you should completely clean your horn before trying a different oil - they sometimes might not mix well.

Have you contacted Ken Larsen for his take on the problem?
_________________
Tim Wendt

www.trumpetherald.com/marketplace.php?task=detail&id=146827&s=The-Best-Trumpet-Lead-Pipe-Swab-EVER--

www.youtube.com/watch?v=zPWAJqghk24&feature=youtu.be

[LittleRusty]

Thicker oil has worked on a couple of horns that I have that had the issue also. One was a Getzen, the other a Bach.

From discussions on here and elsewhere I believe that in some cases what is happening is that the oil film is not thick/strong enough on worn valves so any movement laterally will break the film and end up with with metal on metal sticking.

I believe that the air pressure introduced while playing also plays a part.

I personally do not buy into the "you are not pressing the valves exactly vertical" (edit) like the previous owner (end edit) theory. Many much more knowledgeable and accomplished than me subscribe to the theory, so take my opinion for what it is worth.

The reason why I feel the way I do is that I had this issue with my primary horn that I purchased new in '72. I played the horn exclusively from the day I purchased it.

After it developed the issue I tried many things, including consciously cleaning up my finger stroke, all to no avail.

Skip forward forty years. YourBrass introduced me to Berp Bio Oil for worn valves. Problem solved.

[HERMOKIWI]

I agree with LittleRusty that air pressure plays a part in this. It really has to play a part because nothing is different between working the valves while not playing and working the valves while playing. Like other posters, I don't think the problem involves any lateral force being placed on the valves while playing the horn.

The most logical conclusion is that the air pressure is displacing the valve oil. That indicates excessive clearance/wear with the valves (because the displaced oil still needs a place to be). The first solution to try is valve oil with a higher viscosity. The higher viscosity will make it more difficult for air pressure to displace the oil.

If that doesn't work then you'll have to consider either a valve rebuild or buffing the valves down further so that there's enough clearance that valve oil doesn't matter as much. This latter remedy will, of course, reduce compression but it might make a higher viscosity valve oil more effective in eliminating the problem.

This is a very perplexing and annoying problem. A tech may be able to figure it out for certain assuming the tech is qualified to diagnose valve problems. There is probably some equipment that can test the mechanics of this.
_________________
HERMOKIWI

[LittleRusty]

One other piece of data that I have from my experience is that the sticking normally happened on long notes, like whole notes, not eighth or sixteenth notes. To me this points to air pressure or valve oil draining while the valve is down. While the valve might be looser when down, it would seem that the draining would be as likely when the valve is up as it would down, thus my conclusion that it is air pressure.

[Phoenix864]

Thanks for all the responses, everyone. Ken Larson actually reached out to me via PM with instructions for cleaning the valves. He more or less said to clean the valves and the casings with alcohol, then apply soap to the valves and cycle through Clarke 2 with the soapy valves in the casings.

I followed those steps and reapplied Hetman valve oil instead of Ultrapure. The sticking is now gone, though valve feel isn't fantastic. I'm wondering if that will change as I continue to wear the valves into my playing position.

One oddity that is still occurring is the 'vacuum' feel in the 3rd valve. Valves 1 and 2 have the slight bit of horizontal wiggle that all trumpet valves normally have - however, valve 3 does not move horizontally at all once the top cap is screwed down. Whenever I go to remove the valve it takes extra force to 'pop' it up, while valves 1 and 2 slide out will no effort. Has anyone experienced anything like this?

Thanks.

[LittleRusty]

[Phoenix864]

[LittleRusty]

[etc-etc]

Maybe the casing of the third piston is slightly out of round near the very top.

[Ronnman]

Phoenix864 - take that piston out and wipe off. Then blow through the bottom of the piston. Can you flow air through this valve piston vent? If not, it must be plugged internally. Not sure how to clean this, as I have never seen one clogged.

Also, which Hetman’s # did you use?
Ron
_________________
Martin Committee #2 1954
Leblanc “Al Hirt” Model 1966
Olds Custom Crafted Ultra Sonic 1974
Edwards Gen II 2014