Difficulties as a Comeback Player

[Brassman19]

Hi. I am a comeback player, having been playing again for two years now, after a layoff of 34 years (I played for sixteen years the first time, from third grade, to my junior year in college).

Some things have been coming back well for me (such as tone, resonance buzzing, fingering, tonguing [very slowly, though] playing with style and feel, expression, etc.).

However, there are two areas which continue to give me issues, and which I find especially frustrating, even discouraging, given the fact I have been back at it for two years: my range (I have been able, at times, to play up to [that is, hit, not sustain] about the high D to E above high C [back in high school and early college I could play up into about a high F# to a G, and continue playing in that range], though I can't practically play anything in the upper range now), and, the biggest difficulty and frustration to me has been in my endurance. It seems the maximum amount of time I can play without my lip starting to give out, and I begin to hit some "air biscuits" on notes is maybe 20 - 25 minutes tops, and after that things usually start to go downhill after reaching that point.

First of all, can all you comeback players out there who have successfully gotten back to, and beyond the point you were in your playing before having quit originally, tell me what you found to be the last thing(s) which were to come back and become consistent, and you were able to command and implement in your playing? I guess I am asking this because I want to find out if the areas of endurance and range are a common problem among comeback players, and if so, what each of you did to work on successfully overcoming them.

Any thoughts or suggestions, and especially encouragement any of you can offer will be certainly considered, and especially appreciated. I became so frustrated and discouraged this past week over these difficulties that at one point I considered that maybe I should just give it all up, though that isn't what I really want to do, nor do I think I should do that. I've come this far already, and I didn't start again just to not see it through, plus, what do I have to lose if I continue trying, and keep getting advice and imput as I work through things? I do enjoy and get enjoyment out of playing trumpet and flugelhorn again, but would like to experience more success, especially in these areas, which I feel would then give me even more motivation to continue to work it all, and push through.

Thanks!
_________________
1954 Holton Super Collegiate Trumpet (Yellow brass w/nickel silver bell flare, like the Olds Studio model)
1961 pro Holton Galaxy Trumpet
Bach 1C mp (Trumpet,

[Dayton]

I understand why you'd be frustrated, but sounds to me like you are doing fine. After such a long break you are completely retraining your body -- and mind, to a lesser extent -- to play the trumpet. Think about how many hours of practice, lessons, rehearsals, performances...it took for you to get to the level you were at. You can get back to that level more quickly this time around, but not in 1/8 of the time.

Regarding endurance specifically, multiple shorter sessions are probably much more useful to you at this point than one long session. There are many ways to try to build endurance into your daily practice. You could play Clarke Technical Studies and gradually shorten/eliminate breaks between the individual exercises -- say in groups of three exercises -- play a set number of measures in a Getchell or Hering etude and then try to add one more measure each day...start working on the exercises in Caruso's "Musical Calisthenics for Brass"....

Are you taking lessons? Lessons with a good teacher, and diligently/intelligently practicing the assigned materials are the two most important things you can do to make progress.

Good luck!

[HaveTrumpetWillTravel]

I'm also a comeback player, off about 25 years and then back 2 years. I think range is a challenge for a lot of us. I'm not totally sure what is happening with your endurance.

Here are some things that have helped for me:
-Find places to play, since you will discover others are playing pretty similarly and you can also get some perspective on how you are doing compared to others (for instance, can you hang in there through an hour-long practice?).
-Consider some time with a teacher. I did an embouchure guy and then am working with a music ed grad who's introducing me to jazz, and it's fun. Each teacher added some things I was missing (slurs, etc.).
-It's probably not the equipment, but if you've been on the same horn and mouthpiece, try some alternatives.

Other things I've done that have helped: try doubling (for me on a marching trombone), do more music appreciation, and lower your expectations and try to keep it fun.

Report back and let us know how it goes.

[HaveTrumpetWillTravel]

Oh, one more thing... I also have been playing on a 1c for a while and then I'm now on a Monette-style 4 rim, and those are big mouthpieces. I definitely found playing on smaller pieces (I liked the 5c and 10c) gave me better endurance and range. 1c is fun and gets an awesome sound but it may not be appropriate. What else have you played and did it make a difference?

[GeorgeB]

Yeah, endurance and range were the biggest issues for me. I played between 1953 to 1965 ( in my teens and twenties ) then stopped and didn't play again until early 2016, 5 months prior to my 80th birthday. So much had changed. It was like playing the trumpet for the first time. Harry James' dad Everett published a tutor for cornet and trumpet and that was my text book in 1953, so I went to my well worn and dog-eared copy and learned to play all over again.

By the fall of 2016 I was playing well enough to join the local Horizons band playing first chair in both level 1 and 2. By 2018 I joined a Brass and Reed community band, of which I am still a member, and those two things I had trouble with ( endurance and range ) started to improve. The band concerts are usually around 1 hour, but practice is 90 minutes. When I joined I couldn't do much past 1 hour, but after 5 to 6 months I was, and still am, getting through those 90 minute practice session...and sometimes they go up to 105 minutes.
As for range, well I was doing a two octave C scale every day but comfort playing range was G atop the staff. I am called to play occasional As and Bs and can do it most times but if it comes late at a concert or practice, my chops sometimes give out after G.

So for me, anyway, the only way I improved endurance and range was to join a band that demanded more than I was comfortably able to do when I first joined up. Fortunately, I was playing for an understanding conductor who gave me a lot of leeway.

So, if you are fighting endurance and range, join a band. If I can do it in my eighties, so should you at whatever your age. But beware, you got to play and push the envelope every day if you want to hold on to what you have gained.
George
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GeorgeB
1960s King Super 20 Silversonic
2016 Manchester Brass Custom
1938-39 Olds Recording
1942 Buescher 400 Bb trumpet
1952 Selmer Paris 21 B
1999 Conn Vintage One B flat trumpet
2020 Getzen 490 Bb
1962 Conn Victor 5A cornet

[JayKosta]

[Brassman19]

Thank you for all your kind and helpful comments, and encouragement. Just so as to give you better an idea of what I have done and am doing since and during my comeback, I thought I would address some of your comments.

Thank you Dayton for the encouragement that I am (hopefully) actually on track, and am doing as well as can be expected this early in my comeback. As far as exercises and practices of what I am doing, I tend to play during a practice l (as a warmup) long tones up and down the scale chromatically, down to the low F# (sometimes down into the pedal tones as low as I can, though not typically), and up to around the G or A above the clef. I also play the scales chromatically up and down the clef, across the same range. However, I do tend to make myself try to go for 30 minutes or longer during my practice, though usually while resting an equal amount of time in between playing.

As far as exercises, I have a professional trumpet player friend who has given me a copy of "Lyrical Studies" by Giuseppe Concone to go through (though I honestly don't do them as regularly as I should, in fact not all that often), I guess due to getting bored playing them, and not actually playing "real" music. That is a struggle for me. I also am not taking lessons with an instructor (though I do keep in touch with my trumpet player friend for his thoughts and advice from time to time (he has taught trumpet for many years), mainly due to financial constraints of being able to afford them.

Right now we are experiencing the beginnings of a thunderstorm here where I live, so I am going to close down my response for now, so I can shut down my computer. I will try to get back with everyone else's thoughts later today, after things clear up here.
_________________
1954 Holton Super Collegiate Trumpet (Yellow brass w/nickel silver bell flare, like the Olds Studio model)
1961 pro Holton Galaxy Trumpet
Bach 1C mp (Trumpet,

[Croquethed]

Unless you have a lot of time to play, range and endurance will ALWAYS be an issue. And it may be easy to get discouraged.

First things first: Figure out what you want to get out of the experience. If you have a job, family, etc., you may be lucky to get an hour a day to play. So that hour should not be spent beating yourself up because you can't play a high G like you did in college.

Lessons, community band, etc: Obviously a teacher might be able to help you with range. And playing in a band would likely help with endurance. Again, it all depends on what you really want to get out of the experience.

Find something within your range and endurance level that will force you to stretch your capabilities at your own pace and make you feel good about yourself: When I was a kid, I got absolutely no instruction on ear training or playing or theory. So I started improvising the blues. They sound great, they aren't difficult, and putting together even a simple I-IV-V 12-bar blues is a feeling of accomplishment.

Long tones are your friend: Most days you play, but not all, find a long tone exercise that can build both of your areas of concern. My current regimen goes to G above the staff. That enables me to own that Eb above high C, which is a place I am rarely called to play, anyway. I will keep up the routine, maybe go up to the A, and see if that also gives me the E and F. It may take a while, though. I have been back 6 years after 40 years off, and I am just now owning that Eb.

Keep it up. It's supposed to be something that recharges you and adds to your life. Don't let it become a chore. That was why I quit the first time.

[JayKosta]

[Brassman19]

Hi, I'm back. I realized I can continue my reply using my "smart" phone w/o danger of being electrocuted by lightning, nor endangering my home computer.

Getting back to my practice time, and specifically its length, I suppose I could perhaps instead take a 5 or 10 minute complete break off the horn (or two 5 minute ones w/in it), and set a goal of 40 minutes total, thereby having a total of 30 minutes on the horn, broken into two 15 minute segments playing, which I think will help prevent me from getting to the point of lip fatigue (my lip usually doesn't hurt or have any pain, it just feels fatigued where it seems to become spotty buzzing, causing me to start playing "air biscuits" on some notes, particularly in the start of my current usuable higher range [about 4th space E, up to the G or A above the clef], and then starts happening lower down too.

I also don't perceive I am using too much mp pressure when playing, as it never feels as though the mp is cutting into my lip, nor that it is going to sleep, and the indentations left by it on my lip aren't that severe or noticeable, and they go away pretty quickly after taking the mp off my lips.

As for my equipment, I have had my current trumpet for only about 3 mos. (before it I had a Kanstul F. Besson Intl. horn, with the same or similar results of lip fatigue happening on it, though maybe coming a bit sooner), less time owning my cornet, and only just recently have I started playing my flugel, due to not finding a mp for it until recently. Also, I have been through a couple of mp size changes since restarting playing, realizing through a process of elimination that my greatest level of comfort and ease of playing is using a larger sized one, finally settling on the Bach 1C size, and its equivalent for my flugel.

Right now I feel that me playing with a band or group will not work, partly due to my work and family's schedule, along with the fact I won't feel comfortable enough in my confidence level as a player to play publicly yet, due to my current level (or lack of) technique and ability at this stage. I am concerned if I were to do so now I would feel embarrassed, and wil become discouraged to the point I might decide to just give up trying. I want to avoid feeling in that place and position with my playing at all costs right now, so I can build up my self-confidence as I rebuild my technique.
_________________
1954 Holton Super Collegiate Trumpet (Yellow brass w/nickel silver bell flare, like the Olds Studio model)
1961 pro Holton Galaxy Trumpet
Bach 1C mp (Trumpet,

[S Koons]

[HaveTrumpetWillTravel]

The above is really true. I played in a community band last year and it was really fun. It in theory had auditions, but really it required you to come and play for a couple of practices. It was about 1/3 retired music director-types, some small number of former pros, and then about 1/2 comeback players. They played good music too. I would say that with your range you'd be fine for 2nd or 3rd part with no problem. If you can't reach the occasional high A/B/C you just take it down.

I also struggle with the work/play balance. For many of us this is our escape and primarily for fun, so we're not necessarily interested in doing the hours of work that pros do. Still, you can get pretty far in a half hour a day. I hope it keeps being fun and you find some nice ways to mix it up.

[Dayton]

[Jerry]

Unless I could put several hours a day on the horn, I can't imagine having much range or endurance on a Bach 1C.

What did Jens Lindemann say in his Mouthpiece Rant?
https://www.trumpetherald.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=26763&highlight=rant

[HaveTrumpetWillTravel]

This is a question I honestly don't know the answer to...

For someone like OP, might it be in his interest to just "power through" for a few weeks and see if this might up his endurance? We usually we recommend the opposite, but are there players that just need the mouthpiece on their face for longer stretches of time? Could OP try 20-30 minutes 2x a day and occasionally do some long practices on weekends (45 minutes 2x a day)? I do this sometimes and I think it helps. I also noodle around with a practice mute in while the kids watch TV or buzz on a mouthpiece while I'm reading. There are also other exercises folk recommend (pencil trick, free buzzing, etc.).

Also agree that it might be it might worth trying a smaller mouthpiece for a while. I have played a 5c as my "comfort" mouthpiece--it's almost the same diameter as a 3c (and half way between a 1c and 7c) and I like the rim (I also like the 1c and 10c rims, which feel similar). Just an idea...

[JayKosta]

[HERMOKIWI]

Endurance is a matter of muscular development (greater strength and shorter recovery time) coupled with efficiency.

You increase muscular development by using the muscles and slowly increasing the demands you place on those muscles.

Efficiency is primarily a matter of technique but is also affected by how well the equipment matches up with/facilitates more efficient use of the muscles (same result with less exertion).

A lot of players have plenty of muscle strength and an adequately short recovery time but play so inefficiently that they wear themselves out in much less time than would a player with less muscle strength and a longer recovery time who plays with greater efficiency.

If you focus only on muscle development you are focusing on only half the formula. How you play is far more important to the development of endurance than what you play.

It takes strength to play trumpet well but trumpet is primarily a technique instrument, not a strength instrument. That goes for developing the high register as well: High range is a technique thing far more than a strength thing.

When things aren't working on trumpet the primary root problem is almost always faulty technique, not inadequate strength.

The hardest thing for me to develop has been accuracy, that is, playing the intended note cleanly with consistency. The exercise that has helped me the most in that regard is playing at very low volume to train my lips to respond to minimum airflow. The beauty of this exercise is that it doesn't matter what you play. You can play anything and get the benefits of this exercise. So you don't have to stick with boring methods. You can play fun stuff and get 100% of the benefits, too.
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HERMOKIWI

[gwood66]

Here is a my two cents as a fellow comeback player. Range and endurance are the last things to show up. My endurance improved dramatically once I taught myself to stop playing at the first sign of fatigue. Rest as much as you play is a tried and true tactic. I am not talking about play for 20 minutes and resting for 20 minutes. I am talking about playing a line and then resting for at least as long as it took to play the line. If you still feel yourself tiring out then rest a little bet longer. If you are playing for a long period of time at about the 25 minute mark rest for 5 minutes. Also take the horn off you face after each line to let the blood flow to your lips. This will keep you playing on fresh chops with good mechanics. Reducing tension and unnecessary movement will also help with endurance. Pay attention to any unnecessary movements your embouchure makes when ascending and descending and eliminate them. Lastly pay attention to what your body and lips do as you ascend. I think its natural for most of us to tense up in the upper chest and unnecessarily tense/pinch our lips as we ascend. Strive to eliminate that tension.

To play high notes you have to well.....play high notes. Some of the techniques that have helped me are staying relaxed while playing, not overblowing, not pinching my lips and not overdoing it. Exercises like Clarke 1 and 5, Claude Gordon's Systematic Approach part 1 and part 2 exercises, as well as lips slurs and lip bends help as well.

[Brassman19]

Thank you everybody so much for all your suggestions, thoughts, and contributions to answering my questions, and trying to help me work through the seeming wall I have hit recently in my comeback. I really do appreciate them all, and will try to take them to heart, and apply any and all suggestions which seem applicable and helpful to my journey back. I have had several good practice sessions recently with less issues cropping up, though I have also been working on applying a number of your suggestions since the last time I wrote, which has been encouraging to me.

I knew when I started playing again, and try to keep reminding myself, that my comeback is more like a marathon, and certainly not a sprint by any means. As long as I keep pressing on, consistently applying and practicing the principles of good trumpet, etc. technique, use self discipline to keep doing those things, incorporate the things I am learning from each of my fellow TH members, and keep reaching out for feedback and help from you and others, I believe there will come a "tipping point" where all these things will start fitting together and happening more naturally for me when I play. After that point, I anticipate my recovery and growth as a player will start to accelerate and improve, and will become more "fun" than work to me, as long as still continue doing as I'm doing now, and not let down. Thanks again everyone.
_________________
1954 Holton Super Collegiate Trumpet (Yellow brass w/nickel silver bell flare, like the Olds Studio model)
1961 pro Holton Galaxy Trumpet
Bach 1C mp (Trumpet,