| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
trumpetgreece
Regular Member
Joined: 20 Mar 2020
Posts: 16
|
 Posted: Sat Apr 04, 2020 9:41 am Post subject: problem with teeth |
 |
|
Hi there, trumpet newbie here!
When I play a low G to middle C (I cant play higher), my front upper teeth stick into the lower lip.
It doesn't seem to interfere with the sound but it is vary annoying.
Is this normal? Any ideas to avoid this happening? |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
JayKosta
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2018
Posts: 3303
Location: Endwell NY USA
|
| Posted: Sat Apr 04, 2020 10:26 am Post subject: |
|
|
You probably are not holding your jaw and lips correctly.
I suggest you talk with your teacher, and ask to be taught how to properly position the mouthpiece, and how to hold your lips and jaw.
It is important to learn and do this properly when you are learning how to play. Yes it is possible to make some progress if done wrongly, but more progress will become very difficult or impossible.
Many (most?) people have trouble with this because they do not learn to do it correctly at the beginning, and they develop a 'poor way' to play that works for a while. But then they cannot get better, and have to spend a lot of time learning the correct way.
It is usually wrong to press your lower jaw and teeth upward. Your lip muscles should allow your lips to become more firm and pressed together without being forced by upward jaw effort. And you should have some pressure from your lower teeth and lip pressing outward against the mouthpiece rim - don't pull the mouthpiece inward against your lower lip, press your jaw outward.
Playing higher notes is a skill you need to learn - there is much more to it than just 'tight lips' and 'high mouthpiece pressure'. You should not be stretching your lips to make them thin and tight (not like a rubber band, or violin string), and you should not be using mouthpiece pressure to make them flat and thin - that will cause injury.
Jay
_________________
Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
trumpetgreece
Regular Member
Joined: 20 Mar 2020
Posts: 16
|
| Posted: Sat Apr 04, 2020 12:48 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Thank you for your reply!
I sadly don't have a teacher.
I practiced again earlier and I noticed this:
The upper front teeth sink in the lower lip and the lip is actually pinned between the teeth and the mouthpiece. It doesn't seem to vibrate, however with only the upper lip vibrating the sound is nice.
Also I tried to make an adjustment:
I tried to bring the jaw forward so that upper and lower front teeth are vertically alinged. When doing this the teeth problem is solved, however the setup feels completelly unatural, partly because the forward placement of the jaw lessens the pressure between the upper embochoure and the upper mouthpiece. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
JayKosta
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2018
Posts: 3303
Location: Endwell NY USA
|
| Posted: Sat Apr 04, 2020 1:44 pm Post subject: |
|
|
What do you use as a basic guide to forming your embouchure, positioning the mouthpiece, jaw position, and tongue position.
Most of the various books and youtube contain good basic information, but sometimes it helps to have someone else explain in different words what is being taught.
Jay
_________________
Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Riojazz
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 25 Dec 2006
Posts: 1015
Location: Mid-Hudson Valley, NY
|
| Posted: Sat Apr 04, 2020 3:44 pm Post subject: |
|
|
It is very difficult to give you correct advice online, and nothing substitutes well for a good teacher in person. However, can you make a short video of your embouchure and sound, and post a link to that?
_________________
Matt Finley https://mattfinley.bandcamp.com/releases
Kanstul 1525 flugel with French taper, Shires Bb Destino Med & C trumpets, Schilke XA1 cornet, Schagerl rotary, Schilke P5-4 picc, Yamaha soprano sax, Powell flute. Sanborn GR66MS & Touvron-D. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Brad361
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 16 Dec 2007
Posts: 7080
Location: Houston, TX.
|
| Posted: Sat Apr 11, 2020 9:29 am Post subject: |
|
|
| trumpetgreece wrote: | .....
I sadly don't have a teacher.
...... |
Because?
Not trying to be sarcastic, but your odds of success and correcting this and other problems are GREATLY increased with a qualified teacher. Sure, there can be obstacles, finances sometimes being among them, but generally you CAN find and learn from a private lesson teacher if it’s really a priority.
I really believe that a downside to the internet is that sometimes we try to use it as a substitute for things like an in person teacher.
Brad
_________________
When asked if he always sounds great:
"I always try, but not always, because the horn is merciless, unpredictable and traitorous." - Arturo Sandoval |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Lionel
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 25 Jul 2016
Posts: 783
|
| Posted: Sat Apr 11, 2020 11:19 am Post subject: Re: problem with teeth |
|
|
| trumpetgreece wrote: | Hi there, trumpet newbie here!
When I play a low G to middle C (I cant play higher), my front upper teeth stick into the lower lip.
It doesn't seem to interfere with the sound but it is vary annoying.
Is this normal? Any ideas to avoid this happening? |
Well at least your teeth are not bumping into your upper lip. That is the "reed".
(Edited: I highly recommend that you get book by the late Roy Stevens. According to his "two aperture theory" (page 18 of the 2nd edition) it sounds like your teeth are too close together. Keeping a 1/4 inch gap minimum between the upper and lower teeth should prevent that nasty contact between lower lip and teeth. Seriously my friend,
Get the book. And watch the fantastic videos on the "Roy Stevens Tribute Site".)
Can you place the middle of the mouthpiece over the sharpest point on your teeth? This might bury the offending tooth somewhere that it's much less likely to interfere.
Speaking of teeth?
If you read the 2nd edition of the Stevens Costello Triple C Technique there's a whole page devoted to those with exactly your type of problem. Colin Publishing has it in stock. I bought two of them this spring.
Since I switched over to the Stevens System I've found this embouchure to be much less dependent upon the structure of the teeth than other methods. As this is an embouchure that if earnestly developed provides unlimited range with very little contact pressure against the lips and teeth.
_________________
"Check me if I'm wrong Sandy but if I kill all the golfers they're gonna lock me up & throw away the key"!
Carl Spackler (aka Bill Murray, 1980). |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
LittleRusty
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Aug 2004
Posts: 12662
Location: Gardena, Ca
|
| Posted: Sat Apr 11, 2020 11:38 am Post subject: |
|
|
| trumpetgreece wrote: | I practiced again earlier and I noticed this:
The upper front teeth sink in the lower lip and the lip is actually pinned between the teeth and the mouthpiece. It doesn't seem to vibrate, however with only the upper lip vibrating the sound is nice. |
I don’t understand how this is possible. The way I read this the only air is passing through the teeth since the mouthpiece, lower lip and upper teeth would create a seal.
With my personal physiology there is no way I can reproduce what the OP describes the way I understand it. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
cheiden
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Sep 2004
Posts: 8914
Location: Orange County, CA
|
| Posted: Sat Apr 11, 2020 2:17 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| trumpetgreece wrote: | Also I tried to make an adjustment:
I tried to bring the jaw forward so that upper and lower front teeth are vertically alinged. When doing this the teeth problem is solved, however the setup feels completelly unatural, partly because the forward placement of the jaw lessens the pressure between the upper embochoure and the upper mouthpiece. |
Instead of forcing the lower jaw forward to align the teeth try instead to just drop your lower jar just enough to separate the upper teeth from the lower lip.
_________________
"I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Benge 1X C/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
trumpetgreece
Regular Member
Joined: 20 Mar 2020
Posts: 16
|
| Posted: Thu Apr 23, 2020 9:33 am Post subject: |
|
|
Hi!!! Thanks for all the replies.
I draw a picture of what I am trying to describe...
 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
cheiden
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Sep 2004
Posts: 8914
Location: Orange County, CA
|
| Posted: Thu Apr 23, 2020 11:29 am Post subject: |
|
|
I can certainly set my embouchure so that my top teeth touch my lower lip if I try. When I blow the air stream is directly downward. Would you try to blow out a candle with your lips and teeth like this?
When I adjust my embouchure to my typical playing position I very slightly lower my jaw and bring it slightly forward. Now the air stream is almost parallel to the ground, and the contact from top teeth and lower lip is eliminated.
_________________
"I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Benge 1X C/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
LittleRusty
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Aug 2004
Posts: 12662
Location: Gardena, Ca
|
| Posted: Fri Apr 24, 2020 1:16 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| cheiden wrote: | I can certainly set my embouchure so that my top teeth touch my lower lip if I try. When I blow the air stream is directly downward. Would you try to blow out a candle with your lips and teeth like this?
When I adjust my embouchure to my typical playing position I very slightly lower my jaw and bring it slightly forward. Now the air stream is almost parallel to the ground, and the contact from top teeth and lower lip is eliminated. |
I am curious how the air passes when your lower lip is in contact with your upper teeth. I am not trying to be argumentative and I realize we all differ, as do our physiologies.
In my personal experience when my upper teeth touch my lower lip the only way for air to pass is through the gaps in my teeth. Unless I make the effort to curl the corners of my lower lip upwards, which totally destroys my embouchure. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
trumpetgreece
Regular Member
Joined: 20 Mar 2020
Posts: 16
|
| Posted: Thu Apr 30, 2020 11:37 am Post subject: |
|
|
I have another question...
When playing, especially high notes, are your teeth in position A. or position B.? Which one is correct? Thanks!
 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
JayKosta
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2018
Posts: 3303
Location: Endwell NY USA
|
| Posted: Thu Apr 30, 2020 2:43 pm Post subject: |
|
|
For me (my teeth and lips), it's position A.
And I do that by using my jaw muscles to move my lower jaw forward. And also use controlled jaw muscle force to adjust the amount of force that my lower lip presses FORWARD against the rim.
I try to NOT pull the rim against my lower lip. And I try to hlold the trpt level with the floor, I do not intentionally tilt the trpt up or down. My lower lip and teeth absorb quite a bit of the TOTAL mpc pressure - I feel doing it that way allows my upper lip be free to vibrate.
For low notes the mpc pressure is low (upper and lower lip)
middle note is moderate rim pressure with maybe just a little noticeable pressure from lower lip.
high note have additional pressure on lower lip, and attempt to reduce pressure on upper lip.
The upper lip HAS to be able to vibrate - if too much rim pressure the vibrations cannot happen.
Jay
_________________
Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
cheiden
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Sep 2004
Posts: 8914
Location: Orange County, CA
|
| Posted: Thu Apr 30, 2020 3:15 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| LittleRusty wrote: | | cheiden wrote: | I can certainly set my embouchure so that my top teeth touch my lower lip if I try. When I blow the air stream is directly downward. Would you try to blow out a candle with your lips and teeth like this?
When I adjust my embouchure to my typical playing position I very slightly lower my jaw and bring it slightly forward. Now the air stream is almost parallel to the ground, and the contact from top teeth and lower lip is eliminated. |
I am curious how the air passes when your lower lip is in contact with your upper teeth. I am not trying to be argumentative and I realize we all differ, as do our physiologies.
In my personal experience when my upper teeth touch my lower lip the only way for air to pass is through the gaps in my teeth. Unless I make the effort to curl the corners of my lower lip upwards, which totally destroys my embouchure. |
I said I can make the top teeth touch the bottom lip not because it's a workable setup but because I discovered it has happened (to my detriment) when I was working on range on just the mouthpiece. Note that when this happens enough that interferes with the buzz. When And wt does happen the contact isn't uniform due to the crooked teeth so air flows regardless. As I said, in my normal playing there is no touching.
_________________
"I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Benge 1X C/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
