Felts changing

[Blueblue]

After changing the felts under the finger buttons, I have the idea it changed my trumpet. Can this be true?

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/34/Trompette_-_premier_piston_-_montage_perspective.jpg
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Van Laar B2

[Ed Kennedy]

You bet, they affect the alignment of the valves on the down-stroke.

[zaferis]

Yes, the proper size/thickness is needed for both the up stroke and downstroke. Not just any set of felts/bumpers will do.
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Freelance Performer/Educator
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[JayKosta]

The felt under the valve cap determines the alignment when the piston is UP.
If the sound with all valves UP is good, then don't worry about those felts. If you don't like the results with all UP, you can try some 'rough tests'.
Very slightly depressing a valve would simulate a thicker felt under the cap. Unscrewing the cap slightly would simulate a thinner felt under the cap.

The felt on top of the cap, and any felts or spacers between the button and the shaft determine DOWN alignment. On my horns those 'spacers' have an OD just slightly larger than the shaft - in effect they lengthen the shaft by raising the button. You'd have to look closely at the under-button material to determine its function on your horn.
Sightly unscrewing the button gives more downward piston movement, and would simulate thinner felt of top of the cap, OR thicker spacer under the button.

My goal (as a DIYer) is to have the 'sound quality' good and similar among ALL the valve combinations. Specifically changing the alignment on a valve that seems to degrade the sound when in either UP or DOWN position.

And doing a PVA (should) include doing a lot of test playing to determine the alignment that gives best overall sound quality - which might be different than how the valves 'look' or 'measure'.

Jay
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Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
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[James Becker]

As a practitioner of precision valve alignments, it’s been my experience and the experience of our customers that deviations of .005” or greater are perceptible by player and audible by listener.

To get it in the ballpark is better than not. However, we go to great lengths to optimize your instruments by precisely measuring and correcting deviations.

A common comparison I like to draw is that the bore is the sound path, much like a road is to driving. The less disruptive we can make it the better.

You only need is to ask the folks that have experienced the difference our PVA has made on their instruments.

Calling all customer to provide your testimonies.

Thank you!
_________________
James Becker
Brass Repair Specialist Since 1977
Osmun Music Inc.
77 Powdermill Road Rt.62
Acton, MA 01720
www.osmun.com

Our workshop is as close as your nearest UPS store https://www.ups.com/dropoff?loc=en_US

[cheiden]

FWIW, I've had precision valve alignment (PVA) performed by Bob Reeves on most of my horns and I'm a fan. In additional to making the horn more even tempered, Reeves replaces the felts which are not very durable with an alternate material that is very durable. So not only does the horn play better, it stays better for a very long time.

A side benefit is that you don't have to worry about the felts when washing the horn since the new material don't absorb water.
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"I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Benge 1X C/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart

[TrumpetMD]

[cgaiii]

I am also a fan of PVA. Changing the felts can definitely make a difference, and standard felts wear in and continue to wear, so your alignment changes over time. They may be a little fat to begin with. The best way is with someone like Mr. Becker or perhaps even your local shop (if they have the equipment and the knowhow) doing a PVA. They use synthetic felts that last much longer and position the valves more precisely. I often wonder why this is not done at the factory or by the shop selling the horn when. The only one I know that makes it part of selling a new horn is Austin Custom Brass, but I am sure there are others. Most players I know send new horns or newly acquired horns if not aligned out immediately to have this done before putting the horn to serious use. So many more horns would test better in the showroom if aligned and if the tester had a way of gapping them properly.
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Bb: Schilke X3L AS SP, Yamaha YTR-6335S
C: Schilke CXL, Kanstul 1510-2
Picc: Kanstul 920
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Bb Pocket: Manchester Brass
Flugel: Taylor Standard
Bass Trumpet: BAC Custom
Natural Tr: Custom Haas replica by Nikolai Mänttäri Morales

[Richard A]

[Beyond16]

[zaferis]

[Blueblue]

I changed back the old felts, inside, outside on top I have the rubber one

So the new felt did change the free blow a lot, they gave alignment change indeed…I lost free blow.

Ive learned a lot from you all!

Think I am now going to try synthetic in different thickness sizes.

[Blueblue]

I followed your advice and could see a rim with the new felts, with the old onces the gab was open.

[stumac]

I have been measuring the center to center distance between the ports on the input and output sides of valves, the results have been surprising, only three of my trumpets have what I consider to be good engineering tolerance, Olds Super Recording 0.001"-0.002" all valves, Eclipse and Taylor with Bauerfine valves the same, others in range 0.005" to 0.008". One unbranded European 1st valve output ports 0.015".

If any interest I will measure more and tabulate the results, perhaps James would like to comment.

Regards, Stuart.

[JayKosta]

[Riojazz]

Related question for the experts on valve alignment:

I recently put one of these new tiny endoscopes into my flugel, determined the downstroke alignment on the first valve was considerably off (not far enough down), and corrected it by the right width felt. It now sounds more in tune. I do realize sending it to an expert is better, but is this a reliable enough method to set basic valve alignment as a first step?

Note: on the Kanstul 1525, the design permits a 'straight-through' look at each valve, for one of the valve's holes anyway. Valves two and three were nicely aligned. I realize this isn't possible on most horns, but you can look in any slide.
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Matt Finley https://mattfinley.bandcamp.com/releases
Kanstul 1525 flugel with French taper, Shires Bb Destino Med & C trumpets, Schilke XA1 cornet, Schagerl rotary, Schilke P5-4 picc, Yamaha soprano sax, Powell flute. Sanborn GR66MS & Touvron-D.

[James Becker]

Let me first state that our method of alignment is proprietary. Every practitioner has their own standard for how much deviation is permissible, for example the Reeves reference as Jay pointed out.

That said, there are instances where piston liner diameters may or may not agree with valve casing knuckles. Bach Flugelhorns come to mind where the casing knuckles and slides are .401” while the piston liners are significantly larger. Trumpets with piston liners that are larger than the bore size include Calicchio and Monette, among others. In addition these two makers also chamfer the face the ports of their pistons, yet another consideration to be taken into account.
_________________
James Becker
Brass Repair Specialist Since 1977
Osmun Music Inc.
77 Powdermill Road Rt.62
Acton, MA 01720
www.osmun.com

Our workshop is as close as your nearest UPS store https://www.ups.com/dropoff?loc=en_US

[JayKosta]

[cgaiii]