Is my new mouthpiece sitting too deep?

subg · New Member Joined: 05 Mar 2020 Posts: 8 Location: Berlin

Hi,

I just bought a Bach Megatone 3c for my Flügelhorn (Thomann FH 600 G) and - as expected, really - the mouthpiece sits really deep in the lead pipe, all the way up to the hilt. There's a tiny bit of lateral play when the mouthpiece is in. It still plays really nicely - at least for now.

When I tested it in the shop before buying, there was tape around the outside of the shank (I guess to protect the finish) so I didn't notice this as a problem.
(edit: tested in pre-corona times, purchased during corona and shop is closed!)

My question is - is it too deep and will I get problems because of this? Should I put tape around the shank myself? Get an adapter lead pipe (if that's a thing) and will that affect the tone? Forget it and try to find a similar toned, but better fitting mouthpiece?

The thing is, the Megatone is really nice and I'd like to use it - or something like it that fits better.

Interested in opinions, tips - thanks!

Bach Megatone 3c fit:

No-name 7c mouthpiece that came with the Flugelhorn:

delano · Posted: Mon May 04, 2020 8:42 am Post subject:

Flügelhorns use different mouthpiece tapers. You bought obviously a mouthpiece with a Bach taper while you need the Large Morse taper.
Your Thomann horn seems to be a Yamaha 631 clone with the bore of 0.433 so a Yamaha taper (= Large Morse taper) is needed. Don't blame the music shop, mostly they have no idea.
BTW the whole idea of a Megatone 3C on a flügel is not the best option for a flügel sound. Do some research here for better options, there are a lot of.

From Mouthpiece-express:

Guide to Flugelhorn Tapers
Confused about tapers? Don't be! Here's the scoop on flugelhorn mouthpiece tapers. If you are using the wrong taper, you may be experiencing poor intonation and response!

LARGE Morse taper
Commonly known as Standard Taper. Fits all Yamaha, Getzen, Callet, Stomvi, Benge, King, Blessing, Conn Vintage One, Weril, Holton, Schilke, older Kanstul 1525 flugelhorns, Austin Custom flugelhorns, Allure, Jupiter, and most other “American” flugelhorns except Bach.

SMALL Morse taper
The so-called Bach Taper. Fits Bach, Courtois, CarolBrass, LeBlanc (including Sandoval), B&S, Taylor, RS Berkeley, and some other European brands, plus Kanstul models 725, 1025, and newer 1525.

FRENCH (straight) taper
Also known as Couesnon Taper. The French taper is used by original Couesnons, Flip Oakes "Wild Thing," Kanstul CCF 925, and original F. Besson flugelhorns.

Important Note: Using the wrong mouthpiece shank/taper will slightly affect some and greatly affect other instruments intonation as well as slotting and just the all around play-ability of the instrument. In short the wrong mouthpiece shank/taper can make a great horn a dog. Or you may find the dog Flugel you have only needed the correct mouthpiece to play great.

Please note! Not all manufacturers make all three tapers, and some manufacturers treat certain tapers as special or custom orders.

Flugelhorns can be confusing. This list has been put together to the best of our knowledge. If in doubt, ask us before you order! We'll do our best to find out for sure.

subg · New Member Joined: 05 Mar 2020 Posts: 8 Location: Berlin

Thanks for the informative reply. I chose the Megatone purely on the basis of playing 4-5 different mouthpieces (Bach & Yamaha) with my Flügel and that was the one with by far the best combination of slotting, ease of playing and tone. But the selection wasn't huge compared to names mentioned here on this forum.

The quote definitely confirms that I shouldn't hack the Bach taper into the Large Morse, so will send it back and start afresh...

Cheers.

lipshurt · Posted: Mon May 04, 2020 11:55 am Post subject:

I think i disagree.....
calibrating to the stitches on the fabric below the mouthpieces, yours fits in only 2 or three stitches more that the stock piece, and that looks like it fits correctly. If it were the small bach shank size it would be more drastic than two stitches. It would be .350 inches or a little more than 3/8s. You dont have that much difference.

If it were a french taper, it would go in and not get tight, just fall out.

so I think yours is a hybrid middle size shank, that will "work" in either tapered size receiver, (but not french straight shank)

Big shank is anywhere from .370
middle shank is about .360-.365 (dont have one here to measure at least cant find)
small bach shank is .355.
Bach does make the half way middle size. I have one here that was machined down to the small size.

What does not make a lot of sense is that yours wiggles a little bit. That should not be, unless you have a french shank that has a extra large tapered lip that catches the receiver and makes it not fall out. Usually that lip is only about .410 or .420. The long part of the french shank is usually about .390, and a lip of .400 will make it snug. French shanks can vary (all flugle specs vary a lot by the way) so maybe yours has a lip that is more than .420. You would be able to see that most of the shank is straight and not tapered if that were the case.

If it wobbles and is also tapered, that would mean that it's some other shank maybe for something like a shenkelars or something.
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delano · Posted: Mon May 04, 2020 1:31 pm Post subject:

I am not very good in counting stitches but for me it are more than 2 or 3.
And I never knew that Bach is producing a hybrid shank, this is new for me. I know Schilke produces a hybrid shank that will fit Large M taper and Bach taper (anyway they claim that), I never heard that Bach made something alike and have no idea where to find that. Still I think the OP's mp goes in too far but if it plays well, who cares?
BTW shenkelars is Dutch and the real name is Schenkelaars. And I suppose the Thomann FH600G is just another Yamaha 631 clone so definitely no shenkelars.

subg · New Member Joined: 05 Mar 2020 Posts: 8 Location: Berlin

Thanks - ok, now I am getting confused...

According to the Thomann site, my Flügel has an MS-bore (11 mm) which is the same measurement as what Thomann list for the Yamaha YFH-631 - so looks like delano is spot on.

But... if I zoom in on the YFH-631 photo I can see it has a well-fitting Yamaha 11F4 mouthpiece. Thomann classify their Flügelhorn mouthpieces as 9mm (American shank) or 10mm (German shank). Both the Yamaha 11F4 and the Bach Megatone 3C are listed in that 9mm section.

I did a bit of searching on this site and the Denis Wick 4FL has lots of fans, so was thinking about trying this next. It's also in the 9mm section, so no idea whether it's going to fit better!

lipshurt · Posted: Mon May 04, 2020 2:20 pm Post subject:

extrapolating the pixels it looks like he's a bit more than 5/16th's (close to .200 +/- .003) more insertion, assuming total length is the same, and the ones like that i have are)
A bach shank (.355 end OD) would insert 3/8ths farther (.375)

it cant be a bach small shank.
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vintage Trumpet design enthusiast
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subg · New Member Joined: 05 Mar 2020 Posts: 8 Location: Berlin

Maybe my next purchase should be a set of callipers rather than a mouthpiece...

JayKosta · Posted: Mon May 04, 2020 2:26 pm Post subject:

I'd compare the amount of actual shank insertion into the receiver.
For the wiggle, a single layer of tape around the end that seem undersized.
If the entire shank is loose, then a single layer on both end.

The again compare the amount of insertion, and test play.

Jay
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Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'.

subg · New Member Joined: 05 Mar 2020 Posts: 8 Location: Berlin

Just to close this thread in case it helps anyone with the same Flügel...

I decided to return the Megatone due to the (lack of) fit and tried a Denis Wick 4FL. This fits perfectly and no wiggle:

Note both the Megatone and Denis Wick are in the 9mm section of Thomann Flügelhorn mouthpieces - just the Megatone shank seems to be especially narrow and the Denis Wick specifically states "Yamaha shank for USA and Japanese models" which is what my Flügelhorn turned out to need.

The 4FL has a lovely tone, especially in the mid-range, and intonation is much better than the stock MP too. However, it doesn't slot into notes the way the Megatone did. I will keep the 4FL for now and keep searching for something that was so easy to play as the Megatone (but that fits correctly).