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Trumpjerele
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PostPosted: Sat May 16, 2020 12:11 am    Post subject: Technique or High notes? Reply with quote

Is there good technique without a high developed registry?


There are trumpeters obsessed with tone quality, articulation, others with high notes.

I've always thought that there are more important things to worry about than high notes, and that they will come alone.

But, to be honest, they are not coming, and the limited range, I see it more and more as the result of bad technique.

Excuse my English, any idea is appreciated.
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PostPosted: Sat May 16, 2020 3:48 am    Post subject: Re: Technique or High notes? Reply with quote

Trumpjerele wrote:
...
But, to be honest, they are not coming, and the limited range, I see it more and more as the result of bad technique. ...

-----------------------------------------------
Bad technique can limit your high range.
High range will not 'come along' without practice and effort.
Good technique will make high range practice easier, but it requires effort and determination.
High range should not cause pain or injury to your lips. That happens because of bad technique.

Jay
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krell1960
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PostPosted: Sat May 16, 2020 4:37 am    Post subject: Re: Technique or High notes? Reply with quote

Trumpjerele wrote:
Is there good technique without a high developed registry?


There are trumpeters obsessed with tone quality, articulation, others with high notes.

I've always thought that there are more important things to worry about than high notes, and that they will come alone.

But, to be honest, they are not coming, and the limited range, I see it more and more as the result of bad technique.

Excuse my English, any idea is appreciated.


Yes, there is good technique without high range, most classical oriented players top out around D above high C. But there is a "knack" to learn high notes. ie John Mohan. Also there are equipment issues involved sometimes. Everything has to fit your face correctly and with the proper technique to get into the high register. The mouthpiece has to be the right size, the backbore has to provide the correct resistance, the drill size needs to be right. There is a lot going on.
I heard most of my life that "you have a great sound" keeping practicing and the high notes will come. They never did so i quit playing. 25 years later i started again, but i pretty much changed everything i did before.
I went from the biggest mouthpiece you can play to one of the smallest. It fit my lips better. This required different technique. i played around with different drill sizes, back bores. BTW, my sound through this remains pretty mush the same as it did all those years ago on the big stuff, except now i play above high c all the time with not a lot of practice. It simply a knack or feeling.
It can be figured out, reach out to the pros, they answered my emails and have even called me on the phone when i asked for help.
it can be done but you will have to change what you are doing now to another approach. the key to all this is finding that approach, for me it was Bill Adam stuff. that's what unlocked the door for me. doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results is a waste of time.

good luck,

tom
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mdarnton
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PostPosted: Sat May 16, 2020 4:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am a beginner, one year in, 71 years old. I was getting nowhere with high notes, blowing my brains out and not gaining anything. Just before Covid I had just changed the way I played because I was not making high note process, and from the change suddenly had a reliable G above the staff, and some irregular squeaking above that. My teacher commented that suddenly my tone had changed much for the better. Then Covid, and I stopped lessons and practicing.... about two months ago.

Yesterday I went back, and the first note I played was that G, then I played a scale down, and then up to C and beyond a bit, not well, but notes to about F above high C. My tone is terrible for the moment, but the notes to the G and above are there, easily.

I attribute this completely to technique, not practice, obviously. It all came from Clint McLaughlin's books about relaxed playing at http://www.bbtrumpet.com/home-page/ and the various things I could find written by Jeanne Pocius. Confirmation came from one sentence of Harry James' advice that I read in the introduction to a recent Harry James bio book. The one tip I read here once that helped was someone's comment that a string bass teacher at their school could immediately blow a double high C on demand, even though he couldn't play trumpet, because a friend had told him how it was done. That started me thinking that there had to be a concrete method behind it, beyond just practice and lip tone.

NOTHING else that anyone has said, including here, worked for me. The first step and the core of it was Clint's digeridoo exercises (and I think I could have done them as easily on a 1.5 inch x 4 foot plastic pipe with the edge sanded to soft.) When I started doing that I immediately learned what it means when some say that playing low, and pedals, leads to playing high, but also why that connection is not an inevitability.

I could sum what helped me up in one sentence, but then the attacks would start here from people who "know better". So do the homework with the more legitimate sources and follow what they say.

That's my advice.

Something I have noticed here is that the experienced players seem to have forgotten how they learned, and often aren't good at talking to beginners, tending to blandly saying unhelpful platitudes that aren't about specific processes, like "it's all about air" (it definitely is not all about air--that's ridiculous--shove your mouthpiece IN your mouth and blow--see what you get with just air.) Clint is really good at not being like that. He doesn't give theory, but rather specific techniques to practice that lead to the results he wants, and I highly recommend his books. Start with the digeridoo, though.
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Vin DiBona
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PostPosted: Sat May 16, 2020 6:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The upper register is the toughest to get and the easiest to lose.
Unless you have a particular gift, it can take years to truly be able to play above high C with ease and endurance.
I have a friend who is one of the world's greatest lead players. (The man was playing lead in Las Vegas when he was 18!) He practices 5 or 6 hours a day to maintain his incredible skill.
I also know classical players who can easily hit double high C. If they don't have range, they will not play the Brandenburg or many modern works that require a powerful and accurate upper register.
Sergei Nakariakov is likely the greatest player on the planet. He admits he does not have exceptional range and you don't hear him play in the true upper register, but so what?
Without competent teaching and proper practice and it is unlikely you will ever play "high".
The trumpet is a very difficult instrument and required work.
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Trumpjerele
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PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2020 1:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for your wise answers. There are things to think about. I will try to take it easier, anxiety only produces frustration.
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PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2020 2:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Depends on your musical goals.

I would, personally, trade double high C and Mendez' tonging for Chet Baker's ethos, but limited range, any day. I'm not saying anything's right or wrong. Just that I'd rather play like Chet than John Fadis.
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cheiden
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PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2020 2:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In my limited experience most players will eventually be able to play reliably up to the first G and A above the staff with some limited ability to play up to C or D. Relatively few have a solid reliable C and D with some limited ability to play up to E and F above the staff. Fewer still are reliable to F above the staff with some ability to play higher. Fewer still can play up to DHC pretty much anytime.

I emphatically do not believe that high range is a natural product of good technique. Though it may come more easily to some, most players will need guidance and a lot of dedicated work.

If range is a concern then the best thing you can do is find a pro teacher who's playing you might aspire to who has a reasonable track record of elevating their students. Range much above the staff is one of the least likely things to come to a self-taught player. And of those self-taught that do succeed at range often do so at the expense of other aspects of their tone or technique. There are exceptions, but I would bet on being one of them.

Trumpet is a particularly physical instrument. It's not surprising that a good fraction of players spend a significant amount of time and effort on range and associated endurance. Knowing this, both players and some listeners pursue/obsess/fetishize high notes and high note players, sometimes at the expense of all the other wonderful things about the horn. I've got a LOT of Maynard, Chase and Bergeron in my collection. But I have as many or more recordings of players who spend less or no time in the stratosphere.
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kalijah
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PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2020 5:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I find that a limiting factor to range for many players is using excessive effort on low pitches and especially low soft pitches.

If one uses excess effort in the embouchure and exhalation actions in the low range then the potential for improving range , and playing in general, is very limited.

Unfortunately most players are taught a high effort approach by being required to buzz the mouthpiece or, (shudder) free buzz before playing their first tones. Madness!

Before you launch into trying to improve range you first need to fix your embouchure approach AND learn the HABIT of efficient and easy-effort low notes.

And for goodness sake if you can't play clean attacks on ALL low and mid range notes you aren't ready to venture upward.
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Robert P
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PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2020 6:05 pm    Post subject: Re: Technique or High notes? Reply with quote

Trumpjerele wrote:
Is there good technique without a high developed registry?

There are trumpeters obsessed with tone quality, articulation, others with high notes.

I've always thought that there are more important things to worry about than high notes, and that they will come alone.

But, to be honest, they are not coming, and the limited range, I see it more and more as the result of bad technique.

First, how long have you been playing and what is your current range, i.e. what note can you reliably play when playing a song or exercise?

You should strive to improve *all* aspects of your playing. You can have a lot of technique within a certain range, and certain techniques get harder as you go higher.

"High" of course is relative. High C? High G? Double C? Triple C? Playing higher *is* a technique unto itself. As someone who has made a lot of improvement in range compared to where I used to be, the knack of achieving higher notes is a lot more about finding the way, rather than developing "strength" and the changes in technique can be subtle. It also required having a much more anchored, solid embouchure than I used to have.

Listen to Sergei Nakariakov - he's no Double C player but has enough range to play the majority of classical literature and has superb sound and technical agility.
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Trumpjerele
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PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2020 6:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I do not know how to respond to posts with appointments, also English is not my language, so first I apologize, I will try to be as clear as possible.

I have played the trumpet for just over 15 years, as an amateur. I do not consider myself self-taught because I have received hundreds of private classes, from various teachers.

The last teacher was a good professional musician, he made the kind of music that I liked to do, it seemed perfect for me. However, he did not know how to teach / I did not know how to learn.

Finally, he advised me a direct change of embouchure, in his last two classes I could not play an E in the fourth space, both times, his solution was to keep the trumpet in its case and rest. (Both times were the first notes I played on the day). How would I improve without practice?

In my opinion, it is better not to have a teacher than to have a bad one, and a good performer may not be a good teacher.

After a few months, I started reading this forum, and I started doing Caruso, I had nothing to lose, and I lost nothing, on the contrary, I started to sound better, in all aspects.

Currently, I'm the guy who can play G and A on top the staff, and trouble (or fear) playing high C or D. I played them live, but worried about whether or not the note would come out.

I transcribe Blue Mitchel, Ton Harrel, and some phrase always makes it difficult for me to register, even if I don't exceed the high C.

I think at least you have to be able to play from low F # to high C. That wouldn't make me John Faddis, (neither would Chet Baker, unfortunately), but it would allow me to be more concerned with music than the physical part of playing.

I liked the advice received about not having tension in the medium / low register, I am guiding my practice to become aware of that. In addition the quality of the tone also benefits from the absence of tension. And this is where I see range development as a result of efficient technique
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Robert P
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PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2020 3:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Trumpjerele wrote:
I have played the trumpet for just over 15 years

Currently, I'm the guy who can play G and A on top the staff, and trouble (or fear) playing high C or D. I played them live, but worried about whether or not the note would come out.

And this is where I see range development as a result of efficient technique

If you've been playing for 15 years and still have the issues you're describing with range, you need to change the fundamental mechanics of how you're playing. You might have issues with your teeth or some other aspect of the physical tools you have, but something has to be done differently. You might need to change how you place the mouthpiece on your lips, you may have a strange mouthpiece placement issue. But you have to change how you're doing it - simply doing exercises isn't going to fix your problem. I have personal, intimate experience that you can do endless exercises and not make much progress until you change the mechanics of your playing.

I suggest posting video of you playing some things that take your from your comfortable range to where you run out of gas.
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PostPosted: Sat May 23, 2020 7:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Range is just another technique. If you don't have a full quiver of techniques, you're limiting yourself.
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PostPosted: Sat May 23, 2020 1:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dershem wrote:
Range is just another technique. If you don't have a full quiver of techniques, you're limiting yourself.


Yeah... this. High notes are another tool in your toolbox. If you're missing that tool, then there may come a time when you need it and aren't prepared. At the same time, you need a lot more than a screwdriver in your toolbox.
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Lionel
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PostPosted: Sun May 24, 2020 3:42 am    Post subject: Re: Technique or High notes? Reply with quote

Trumpjerele wrote:
Is there good technique without a high developed registry?


There are trumpeters obsessed with tone quality, articulation, others with high notes.

I've always thought that there are more important things to worry about than high notes, and that they will come alone.

But, to be honest, they are not coming, and the limited range, I see it more and more as the result of bad technique.

Excuse my English, any idea is appreciated.


I've found that those trumpet players who tell you things like,

"I don't want high notes to mess up my fine technique"

Are really in a condition of denial and I feel sorry for them. Range usually really counts. And even if we take one of the most famous trumpet players of all time and who hardly ever played above a high C? We find that he still badly injured his embouchure and it took several years for him to come back. Although the man had already become fabulously wealthy his trumpet playing never quite returned to his former level and glory years. I'm speaking if course of Herb Alpert. Whom I've always greatly admired.

Please believe me when I tell you that many answers to range and endurance are found in "The Stevens-Costello Triple C Embouchure Technique" . The second edition went to print in 2005 and can be purchased through Charles Colin. I've bought 2 this year.

Granted that this method usually requires a complete embouchure change. Although for many years the tips in the book have greatly helped my former embouchure just through the use of common sense as outlined in various parts. Also there are some facts missing from Stevens-Costello. Some things that I simply had to figure out for myself. However many students of the author Roy Stevens used the method for a beyond phenomenal advantage.

When the Stevens embouchure starts to kick in a double C becomes about as hard on the lips to play as a mere high C. Or in some cases? As easy to play as G top of the staff. One just needs to use more support from the abdominal muscles.

I finally started to make the complete conversion over to the system only this past Nov of 2019. I started by playing little squeaky but very high notes. Oftentimes notes around G above high C and higher. Within only a week or two I had worked these squeaky tones down to my concert B flat tuning note. Now I was in business. Here I am in May now some barely six months later. My range goes up to a fine "practice room" F ABOVE double C. It is well connected to my middle register too! I still need to work out some details in the middle and lower register but these are improving every day. Roy Stevens said that his method took three years. He wouldn't teach any other method. Not even to beginners.

Yes other methods are easier for beginners but this is because they start out teaching lower tones. Well shucks any idiot can learn to play musically in the lower and middle registers. Eventually however he discovers that there is such a thing as an upper register. And in perhaps 999 times out of a thousand he doesn't have it. Or at least not a really good one.

Now today thanks to the writings of Roy Stevens and his predecessor Bill Costello I can usually play the
double C with no arm pressure at all. And I fully admit that there are still some small snafus in my technique but hey,

What else would one expect from an embouchure just six months old? Prior to beginning with the Stevens method I had to jam really hard to blow a high F. And my range stopped above a high G. But now? Well shucks I sent a sound clip attached to an email sent to a friend where I absolutely NAILED three double Cs and capped them off with an F a perfect fourth above.

Roy Roman has made several valuable videos on the Stevens-Costello approach. Some on youtube but the best place is to search for them is on the "Roy Stevens Tribute Page". Please believe me. Thanks.
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PostPosted: Sun May 24, 2020 11:06 am    Post subject: Re: Technique or High notes? Reply with quote

Lionel wrote:
Trumpjerele wrote:
Is there good technique without a high developed registry?


There are trumpeters obsessed with tone quality, articulation, others with high notes.

I've always thought that there are more important things to worry about than high notes, and that they will come alone.

But, to be honest, they are not coming, and the limited range, I see it more and more as the result of bad technique.

Excuse my English, any idea is appreciated.


I've found that those trumpet players who tell you things like,

"I don't want high notes to mess up my fine technique"
I have never heard of a trumpet player saying something like that. But I have heard trumpet players denying the importance of learning to play high, so I agree with you that they are in denial. If you want to play trumpet well regardless of your choice in musical style you need to be able to get up to at least like, a high F. I also do not think range just comes along as a nice bonus when you practice a lot and do what your teacher tells you. You have to figure out high notes intentionally.
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PostPosted: Sun May 24, 2020 12:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Technique and the high register are inextricably bound together. Good technique is where the notes in the high, middle and low register have the same tone quality. Of no use is the notes above the staff sounding good and the middle and low register sounding airy and unfocused. Neither are high notes sounding like mouse squeaks. As a 'classical' player I have never had any use for a double C, but in practice I will often have fun playing above high C mainly for the psychological benefit of playing the lower notes and the anticipation of a Brandenburg gig. My secret is the daily practice of lip slurs linking the registers leading to a sensitive and responsive embouchure.
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PostPosted: Sun May 24, 2020 2:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

trumpet56 wrote:
Technique and the high register are inextricably bound together. Good technique is where the notes in the high, middle and low register have the same tone quality. Of no use is the notes above the staff sounding good and the middle and low register sounding airy and unfocused. Neither are high notes sounding like mouse squeaks. As a 'classical' player I have never had any use for a double C, but in practice I will often have fun playing above high C mainly for the psychological benefit of playing the lower notes and the anticipation of a Brandenburg gig. My secret is the daily practice of lip slurs linking the registers leading to a sensitive and responsive embouchure.


From my experience which includes nearly 56 years of both amateur and professional trumpet playing along with observing and meeting a great number of trumpet players? If you have a solid high F you're actually quite fortunate. This was my useable range prior to tooth loss. And now by adopting the Stevens method it appears likely to increase a lot above the

Anyway what discourages me about modern trumpet teaching techniques is the inability of most to adequately identify the muscles, flesh and jaw structure that make up a correct embouchure. Most don't even define the part of the chops which acts as the reed!

About a month ago I was in a phone conversation with Bill Moriarty. Editor of both the first and second editions of the Stevens-Costello method. And we started chatting about how sad it was that during his lifetime that Roy Stevens wasn't more accepted by his peers in the industry. As he certainly had the clientele with incredible chops. This was when I brought up the subject of freeing up the upper lip. Due to it usually being placed in an unfavorable position relative to a trumpet player's upper teeth. Suddenly Bill remarked,

"It's the reed! THE REED!!! The upper lip MUST be set and maintained in a position where it can receive the air".

And practically nowhere else in all the books ever written on the subject is the importance of keeping the teeth OUT of the way of the upper lip mentioned. Except for what Roy said.
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Trumpjerele
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PostPosted: Sun May 24, 2020 2:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

At this point, I am clear that I have bad habits that I need to replace with better ones to improve many aspects of my game, range one of them.

I don't like physical approaches, they fill my head with ideas that are easy to misinterpret. I have some good new books that are giving me good and different ideas.

If none of that worked, I would need an experienced embouchure change master to guide me through the process, I can't do that alone. But today, I'd rather start with another instrument from 0 than start that torture ..
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PostPosted: Sun May 24, 2020 8:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Trumpjerele wrote:
I don't like physical approaches, they fill my head with ideas that are easy to misinterpret. I have some good new books that are giving me good and different ideas.

Every musical instrument involves a physical approach. Trumpet is a highly physical instrument. If things aren't going the way you'd like, it's because of something physical.

You'll never fix your problem if you don't change the mechanics of how you're playing. Analyze what you're doing until it isn't confusing.

Post video of yourself playing.
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