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deleted_user_48e5f31 New Member
Joined: 03 Apr 1996 Posts: 0
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Posted: Thu Apr 23, 2020 8:59 am Post subject: Cornet in a |
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Deleted by dfcoleman
Last edited by deleted_user_48e5f31 on Tue Jan 05, 2021 6:48 am; edited 1 time in total |
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matthes93401 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 26 Feb 2006 Posts: 640
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Posted: Wed May 20, 2020 4:30 pm Post subject: |
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I promised to follow-up after I had pursued the A-adapter option...
So I reached out to TrueVee about making a Bb-to-A adapter for my CarolBrass Bb cornet (the model that looks like a Benge 8Z). The cornet mouthpiece adapter part, while beautifully machined, didn't produce a reliable key-of-A scale. I think the leadpipe taper employed by CarolBrass is significantly different than most.
Michael, at TrueVee, was very knowledgeable and professional. He offered a full refund.
I asked to try the stock TrueVee Bb-to-A adapter for trumpet, and it works pretty well for my Schilke X4B Bb trumpet. The difference is that the main tuning slide goes out at least twice as much, and the 1st and 3rd slides require twice the reach on notes involving 1, 1+2, 1+3, 2+3, and 1+2+3. The change is predictable. So a refund wasn't necessary, as I just applied the credit for the trumpet adapter.
I did also try the adapter on my CarolBrass Bb trumpet, but again, the results weren't reliable. Mr. Lee at CarolBrass must have designed leadpipes significantly different than those used in American trumpets.
So I'm happy with the outcome, now that I can have an adapter for reading parts in A. This is a major convenience when an Arthur Sullivan overture or other late romantic A part materializes on short notice. That said, a Bb instrument is optimized for Bb; And while you can make the tuner happy using an adapter, the adapted instrument isn't as resonant. Ultimately, a transposition will be best. But if you're short on time, the adapter is a good option. It was also neat to play a solid low concert Eb in the excerpt from the opening of Bizet's Carmen. I've never had a good pedal range. |
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Didymus Veteran Member
Joined: 19 Dec 2017 Posts: 306 Location: Minneapolis, MN
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Posted: Thu May 21, 2020 2:32 pm Post subject: |
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matthes93401 wrote: | I promised to follow-up after I had pursued the A-adapter option...
So I reached out to TrueVee about making a Bb-to-A adapter for my CarolBrass Bb cornet (the model that looks like a Benge 8Z). The cornet mouthpiece adapter part, while beautifully machined, didn't produce a reliable key-of-A scale. I think the leadpipe taper employed by CarolBrass is significantly different than most.
Michael, at TrueVee, was very knowledgeable and professional. He offered a full refund.
I asked to try the stock TrueVee Bb-to-A adapter for trumpet, and it works pretty well for my Schilke X4B Bb trumpet. The difference is that the main tuning slide goes out at least twice as much, and the 1st and 3rd slides require twice the reach on notes involving 1, 1+2, 1+3, 2+3, and 1+2+3. The change is predictable. So a refund wasn't necessary, as I just applied the credit for the trumpet adapter.
I did also try the adapter on my CarolBrass Bb trumpet, but again, the results weren't reliable. Mr. Lee at CarolBrass must have designed leadpipes significantly different than those used in American trumpets.
So I'm happy with the outcome, now that I can have an adapter for reading parts in A. This is a major convenience when an Arthur Sullivan overture or other late romantic A part materializes on short notice. That said, a Bb instrument is optimized for Bb; And while you can make the tuner happy using an adapter, the adapted instrument isn't as resonant. Ultimately, a transposition will be best. But if you're short on time, the adapter is a good option. It was also neat to play a solid low concert Eb in the excerpt from the opening of Bizet's Carmen. I've never had a good pedal range. |
Thanks for sharing! _________________ Enjoy the journey. |
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illegalbugler Regular Member
Joined: 18 May 2015 Posts: 66
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Posted: Sat Jul 25, 2020 9:50 am Post subject: Re: Cornet in a |
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dfcoleman wrote: | I believe Schilke made a few A cornets at one point. |
The Schilke website lists "Key of A" as an option for the XA1 and the A1. Model numbers are XA1A and A1A respectively. I would think they are exceptionally rare. James Donaldson doesn't mention these models on his loyalist site. _________________ Schilke, Kanstul, Benge, Getzen |
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Louise Finch Heavyweight Member
Joined: 10 Aug 2012 Posts: 5467 Location: Suffolk, England
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Posted: Tue Jul 28, 2020 10:57 am Post subject: |
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FrankM wrote: | B&H Imperials and early Sovereigns have a movable crook as the tubing goes into the 3rd valve. This gives enough leeway to lower them to A. The main slide on its own isn't long enough. Cheers, Frank. |
Hi FrankM
I have a later B&H Imperial, in low pitch with the fixed mouthpiece receiver. I never thought to use the extra slide to lower the cornet to A. This could actually be useful, as I come across cornet in A parts from time to time in my orchestras. I usually use my Yamaha Xeno, but could take my Imperial.
What please are the amount to pull all the slides, to bring the Imperial into A?
Many thanks
Lou _________________ Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs |
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Dale Proctor Heavyweight Member
Joined: 26 May 2005 Posts: 9359 Location: Heart of Dixie
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Posted: Tue Jul 28, 2020 11:54 am Post subject: |
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Just experiment with a tuner for the slide pulls. _________________ "Brass bands are all very well in their place - outdoors and several miles away ." - Sir Thomas Beecham |
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AJCarter Heavyweight Member
Joined: 29 Apr 2007 Posts: 1280 Location: Indiana
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Posted: Tue Jul 28, 2020 11:55 am Post subject: Re: Cornet in a |
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illegalbugler wrote: | dfcoleman wrote: | I believe Schilke made a few A cornets at one point. |
The Schilke website lists "Key of A" as an option for the XA1 and the A1. Model numbers are XA1A and A1A respectively. I would think they are exceptionally rare. James Donaldson doesn't mention these models on his loyalist site. |
Not sure if they were listed online before. I noticed they list several models they had not been listing for years such as an E2-L and the AC-1. _________________ (List horns here) |
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Louise Finch Heavyweight Member
Joined: 10 Aug 2012 Posts: 5467 Location: Suffolk, England
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Posted: Wed Jul 29, 2020 1:19 am Post subject: |
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Dale Proctor wrote: | Just experiment with a tuner for the slide pulls. |
Hi Dale
Thank you very much, but I haven't got a tuner other than my ears. If there was just one slide to pull, I could listen to each note and tune it, but with the main tuning slide, this extra slide, and the relevant slides for each individual note, which do I move first? I suppose it doesn't really matter, as it is the total amount of slide pull which matters at the end of the day, but I wouldn't mind some ideas of where to start.
All the best
Lou _________________ Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs |
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Gabrieli Regular Member
Joined: 07 Mar 2016 Posts: 65 Location: Germany
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Posted: Wed Jul 29, 2020 2:45 am Post subject: |
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Roughly speaking just to try it out:
Main tuning slide 1 2/3 inches
First slide 1/5 of an inch
3rd slide 1/3 of an inch.
2nd slide not worth bothering.
I think this is more or less correct but no doubt someone will correct me if not.
Isn’t it easier just to transpose? |
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Louise Finch Heavyweight Member
Joined: 10 Aug 2012 Posts: 5467 Location: Suffolk, England
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Posted: Wed Jul 29, 2020 3:04 am Post subject: |
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Gabrieli wrote: | Roughly speaking just to try it out:
Main tuning slide 1 2/3 inches
First slide 1/5 of an inch
3rd slide 1/3 of an inch.
2nd slide not worth bothering.
I think this is more or less correct but no doubt someone will correct me if not.
Isn’t it easier just to transpose? |
Hi Gabrieli
Thank you very much, this is really appreciated. Does anyone know the pull required for the extra slide on the Boosey and Hawkes Imperial? Many thanks.
Personally I don't really like the semitone transposition whilst playing, and if I have the music in advance, I normally transpose the music so that I can play it on Bb cornet.
FrankM mentioning how the extra tubing on the Imperial could be used to lower the pitch to A (does anyone know the reason for this extra tubing in the first place, other than to empty water (I don't think I've ever had to empty water from this place)), which interested me.
All the best
Lou _________________ Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs |
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FrankM Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Feb 2011 Posts: 545 Location: Lincolnshire England
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Posted: Wed Jul 29, 2020 4:33 am Post subject: |
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Hi Lou, just picked up on your post. My Imp is a late model number 513233 and using a Wick 5 that inserts 23mm I pull the slides as follows.
Main is long enough to lower the pitch to 'A' but it only leaves 10 or 11 mm engaged.
So I set the main slide to 33mm and the secondary slide to 15mm. The 3rd slide is then pulled to 12mm and the 1st slide to 9mm.
That should put you in the ball park with enough tube engaged in all 4 crooks to keep leakage to a minimum.
Cheers, Frank. _________________ Fairly large collection. Favourites:-
Eclipse Bb Tpt
Yamaha 6335H Bb Tpt
Besson Meha Bb Tpt
Selmer 99 Radial
Conn Connstelation 36B
Conn Connstelation 28A
B&H Sovereign Cornet
Yamaha 635T Flugel Horn. |
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Dale Proctor Heavyweight Member
Joined: 26 May 2005 Posts: 9359 Location: Heart of Dixie
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Posted: Wed Jul 29, 2020 12:37 pm Post subject: |
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Louise Finch wrote: | Dale Proctor wrote: | Just experiment with a tuner for the slide pulls. |
Hi Dale
Thank you very much, but I haven't got a tuner other than my ears. If there was just one slide to pull, I could listen to each note and tune it, but with the main tuning slide, this extra slide, and the relevant slides for each individual note, which do I move first? I suppose it doesn't really matter, as it is the total amount of slide pull which matters at the end of the day, but I wouldn't mind some ideas of where to start.
All the best
Lou |
Take another cornet/trumpet you have (or a piano if you have one) and tune the Imperial to it, beginning with the open note on the Imperial, the written C in a part written for Cornet in A. Proceed to tuning the valve slides after that. _________________ "Brass bands are all very well in their place - outdoors and several miles away ." - Sir Thomas Beecham |
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wilder Veteran Member
Joined: 27 Jun 2020 Posts: 341 Location: NYC
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Posted: Wed Jul 29, 2020 3:51 pm Post subject: |
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I asked William Vacchiano about the "built in change to A" on Bach trumpets during one of my lessons with him which was funny because he was such a fanatic about transposition. But, he also was a real gearhead about equipment too so he explained it to me. Its simple. First you pull out the main tuning slide so the notes sound a half step lower with the normal fingerings. You will have to tune to something, a piano, tuner, tuning fork, another player or just one of your other horns. For example, play a first space F sharp on your fluegelhorn then when your 2nd line G matches it on your "A" trumpet you are basically done. 1st slide comes out a 1/4 inch, the 3rd slide a 1/2 inch and you are all set. Do not worry about the 2nd slide. It doesn't matter. Just play around with it and I guarantee you will hear it. Keep in mind that it will not play quite as in tune as in Bflat because the bell is not being lengthened when you put it in A. jw |
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illegalbugler Regular Member
Joined: 18 May 2015 Posts: 66
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Posted: Sat Aug 01, 2020 10:56 am Post subject: Re: Cornet in a |
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AJCarter wrote: | illegalbugler wrote: | dfcoleman wrote: | I believe Schilke made a few A cornets at one point. |
The Schilke website lists "Key of A" as an option for the XA1 and the A1. Model numbers are XA1A and A1A respectively. I would think they are exceptionally rare. James Donaldson doesn't mention these models on his loyalist site. |
Not sure if they were listed online before. I noticed they list several models they had not been listing for years such as an E2-L and the AC-1. |
They updated their website in the last year or two. These models and options - that I assume are still being ordered - were added. I spend too much time on their website. _________________ Schilke, Kanstul, Benge, Getzen |
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Louise Finch Heavyweight Member
Joined: 10 Aug 2012 Posts: 5467 Location: Suffolk, England
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Posted: Sun Aug 02, 2020 12:59 am Post subject: |
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FrankM wrote: | Hi Lou, just picked up on your post. My Imp is a late model number 513233 and using a Wick 5 that inserts 23mm I pull the slides as follows.
Main is long enough to lower the pitch to 'A' but it only leaves 10 or 11 mm engaged.
So I set the main slide to 33mm and the secondary slide to 15mm. The 3rd slide is then pulled to 12mm and the 1st slide to 9mm.
That should put you in the ball park with enough tube engaged in all 4 crooks to keep leakage to a minimum.
Cheers, Frank. |
Hi Frank
I'm very sorry for the slow reply. Thank you very very much for this, which is really appreciated.
Thanks again
Best wishes
Lou _________________ Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs |
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Louise Finch Heavyweight Member
Joined: 10 Aug 2012 Posts: 5467 Location: Suffolk, England
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Posted: Sun Aug 02, 2020 1:01 am Post subject: |
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Dale Proctor wrote: | Louise Finch wrote: | Dale Proctor wrote: | Just experiment with a tuner for the slide pulls. |
Hi Dale
Thank you very much, but I haven't got a tuner other than my ears. If there was just one slide to pull, I could listen to each note and tune it, but with the main tuning slide, this extra slide, and the relevant slides for each individual note, which do I move first? I suppose it doesn't really matter, as it is the total amount of slide pull which matters at the end of the day, but I wouldn't mind some ideas of where to start.
All the best
Lou |
Take another cornet/trumpet you have (or a piano if you have one) and tune the Imperial to it, beginning with the open note on the Imperial, the written C in a part written for Cornet in A. Proceed to tuning the valve slides after that. |
Hi Dale
I'm very sorry for the slow reply.
Thank you very much.
Best wishes
Lou _________________ Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs |
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GordonH Heavyweight Member
Joined: 16 Nov 2002 Posts: 2893 Location: Edinburgh, Scotland
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Posted: Tue Aug 04, 2020 12:38 am Post subject: |
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That second tuning slide was originally the main tuning slide on old cornets. The "main" slide was mobile and operated with the thumb. You can spot those ones because they have a wide loop for your finger to go into. Then in the 30s they started advertising the second slide as a "high to low pitch" adjuster - at the time when commercial music was in low pitch and brass bands were in high pitch. I have a cornet with the two slides and it plays much better with the "main" slide all the way in and the tuning done on the secondary slide. _________________ Bb - Scherzer 8218W, Schilke S22, Bach 43, Selmer 19A Balanced
Pic - Weril
Flugel - Courtois 154
Cornet - Geneva Heritage, Conn 28A
Mouthpieces - Monette 1-5 rims and similar.
Licensed Radio Amateur - GM4SVM |
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Louise Finch Heavyweight Member
Joined: 10 Aug 2012 Posts: 5467 Location: Suffolk, England
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Posted: Tue Aug 04, 2020 1:10 am Post subject: |
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GordonH wrote: | That second tuning slide was originally the main tuning slide on old cornets.
Hi Gordon H
Very interesting, thank you very much.
The "main" slide was mobile and operated with the thumb. You can spot those ones because they have a wide loop for your finger to go into. Then in the 30s they started advertising the second slide as a "high to low pitch" adjuster - at the time when commercial music was in low pitch and brass bands were in high pitch.
Again interesting, thanks. I wonder why they continued this feature on the later low pitch Imperial, like I have.
I have a cornet with the two slides and it plays much better with the "main" slide all the way in and the tuning done on the secondary slide.
I'll have this to try this, thanks.
Best wishes
Lou |
_________________ Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs |
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GordonH Heavyweight Member
Joined: 16 Nov 2002 Posts: 2893 Location: Edinburgh, Scotland
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Posted: Tue Sep 01, 2020 5:31 am Post subject: |
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B&S make a Bb/A cornet. Its model "Brochon". It has the two main tuning slides. The second one has a slide with a rotary valve that inserts an A tuning slide into the tubing. I believe its 550 euros extra to have the A slide though! _________________ Bb - Scherzer 8218W, Schilke S22, Bach 43, Selmer 19A Balanced
Pic - Weril
Flugel - Courtois 154
Cornet - Geneva Heritage, Conn 28A
Mouthpieces - Monette 1-5 rims and similar.
Licensed Radio Amateur - GM4SVM |
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Louise Finch Heavyweight Member
Joined: 10 Aug 2012 Posts: 5467 Location: Suffolk, England
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Posted: Tue Sep 01, 2020 7:13 am Post subject: |
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GordonH wrote: | B&S make a Bb/A cornet. Its model "Brochon". It has the two main tuning slides. The second one has a slide with a rotary valve that inserts an A tuning slide into the tubing. I believe its 550 euros extra to have the A slide though! |
Hi GordonH
Interesting, many thanks.
Best wishes
Lou _________________ Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs |
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