Posted: Wed May 20, 2020 12:36 pm Post subject: that distorted sound
Hello everyone,
I ve recently changed my embouchure and I ve noticed that when I try to play medium to high notes that distorted sound appears.
By distorted sound I mean that 'khhh' sound, as if the lips are not vibrating in an easy way, but are forced to vibrate. I would call this 'distorted vibration'.
I believe that this happens because my lips are too close...
Is there a standard reason why this 'khhh' sound appears when playing the trumpet?
Joined: 24 Dec 2018 Posts: 3298 Location: Endwell NY USA
Posted: Wed May 20, 2020 1:20 pm Post subject: Re: that distorted sound
trumpetgreece wrote:
...
I believe that this happens because my lips are too close...
--------------------
You need to tell us about your new embouchure, is there somewhere online that contains a description or picture of the type of embouchure you use?
It is not usually necessary to strongly squeeze the top and bottom lips together. Are you attempting to do that?
Jay _________________ Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'.
Joined: 26 May 2006 Posts: 1808 Location: Toronto, Canada
Posted: Wed May 20, 2020 2:31 pm Post subject: Re: that distorted sound
trumpetgreece wrote:
I believe that this happens because my lips are too close...
Is there a standard reason why this 'khhh' sound appears when playing the trumpet?
Charlie Porter talks about this in his embouchure setup videos, and what you're describing sounds like what he says is the result of the lips being too close:
Joined: 31 Dec 2015 Posts: 899 Location: California
Posted: Wed May 20, 2020 5:09 pm Post subject:
I find it helpful to focus on the sensation of my lips vibrating in addition to listening to myself. Usually if I sound bad I am not feeling a complete vibration inside the mouthpiece.
Make your lips vibrate inside the mouthpiece all the way across, top to bottom, left to right. The lips needs to be relaxed inside the cup so that they can vibrate. Some part of your inner embouchure is out of position or overly firmed. In addition to hearing the sound you describe, you can FEEL it, if you pay attention. Play around with that idea for a couple practice sessions and see if that fixes things.
Posted: Thu May 21, 2020 3:34 am Post subject: Re: that distorted sound
JayKosta wrote:
You need to tell us about your new embouchure, is there somewhere online that contains a description or picture of the type of embouchure you use?
It is not usually necessary to strongly squeeze the top and bottom lips together. Are you attempting to do that?
Jay
In my new embouchure I place the jaw more forward so that the upper and lower teeth are alinged. In my previous embouchure the jaw was back and that resulted at a misplacement of the teeth.
I have the suspicion that the new embouchure causes the bottom lip to go a little bit over the upper lip and that might be problematic.
Furthermore, I try different types of aperture to see which is best.
I try playing with a closed aperture(lips touching) and I think thats when the distorted sound appears-but only when playing higher. And yes I squeeze my lips when trying to play higher.
Playing with a more open aperture(as a starting point/before producing the sound) feels wrong.
Basically, I am confused about what my 'starting' aperture should be...open or closed? Is there a definate correct way?
*by 'starting' aperture I mean the aperture when you put the mouthpiece on, before producing any notes
Posted: Thu May 21, 2020 3:45 am Post subject: Re: that distorted sound
Steve A wrote:
Charlie Porter talks about this in his embouchure setup videos, and what you're describing sounds like what he says is the result of the lips being too close:
He's also great at explaining and clarifying this in more detail via Skype lesson, just so you know.
I have seen the videos of Charlie and he advocates an open aperture.
There are other teachers which, from my understanding, just buzz into the mouthpiece, without opening an aperture.
Joined: 24 Dec 2018 Posts: 3298 Location: Endwell NY USA
Posted: Thu May 21, 2020 4:56 am Post subject: Re: that distorted sound
trumpetgreece wrote:
...
I have the suspicion that the new embouchure causes the bottom lip to go a little bit over the upper lip and that might be problematic. ...
------------------------------------------
That can happen if the jaw is being moved UPWARD, in addition to being pressed FORWARD against the mouthpiece rim.
The 'direction of the air flow through the aperture' will be fine when you have controlled forward pressure on your lower lip.
The type of lip aperture depends on you trying different styles to find what works for you. The 'lip tension' should be primarily 'horizontal' tension of each lip separately.
Jay _________________ Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'.
Joined: 31 Dec 2015 Posts: 899 Location: California
Posted: Thu May 21, 2020 8:27 pm Post subject: Re: that distorted sound
trumpetgreece wrote:
JayKosta wrote:
You need to tell us about your new embouchure, is there somewhere online that contains a description or picture of the type of embouchure you use?
It is not usually necessary to strongly squeeze the top and bottom lips together. Are you attempting to do that?
Jay
In my new embouchure I place the jaw more forward so that the upper and lower teeth are alinged. In my previous embouchure the jaw was back and that resulted at a misplacement of the teeth.
I have the suspicion that the new embouchure causes the bottom lip to go a little bit over the upper lip and that might be problematic.
Furthermore, I try different types of aperture to see which is best.
I try playing with a closed aperture(lips touching) and I think thats when the distorted sound appears-but only when playing higher. And yes I squeeze my lips when trying to play higher.
Playing with a more open aperture(as a starting point/before producing the sound) feels wrong.
Basically, I am confused about what my 'starting' aperture should be...open or closed? Is there a definate correct way?
*by 'starting' aperture I mean the aperture when you put the mouthpiece on, before producing any notes
I find that any intentional positioning of the jaw is incredibly difficult to manage effectively. If it's not happening naturally, my playing falls apart if I try to change my jaw position.
Joined: 24 Dec 2018 Posts: 3298 Location: Endwell NY USA
Posted: Fri May 22, 2020 2:50 am Post subject: Re: that distorted sound
Jaw04 wrote:
... I find that any intentional positioning of the jaw is incredibly difficult to manage effectively. If it's not happening naturally, my playing falls apart if I try to change my jaw position.
-----------------------------
Physical actions need to be discovered, practiced, and trained so they become 'natural'.
If poor results are happening, it's also necessary to think and feel what's causing them, and try something different.
Jay _________________ Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'.
What I like to point out is the very different texture along the whole upper lip. From it's fairly stiff, most exterior portion to it's far more pliable and elastic interior section of the inner gums. No doubt but that you'll note a distinct variance in texture. The inner, gum membrane is far more elastic than the exterior portion.
Okay now while I'm no longer much of a proponent of pedal tone methods for high notes I will admit that they've been very helpful for a number of trumpet players starting to first play high notes. And they do this because the pedal tone embouchure tends to expose to the airstream this much more vibrant inner gum membrane of the upper lip. Pedal tone systems also tend to direct the student to "pucker" into the mouthpiece. What was called "The Maggio Monkey".
Jay,
Diametrically opposed to both puckering and pedals tones appears to be those forward jaw trumpet players. I'm going off of both my own experience and reports from cats like Bud Brisbois. As well as noted teachers like Rein and Stevens. The forward jaw embouchure position tends to create a longer lateral distance for the upper and lower lips to "interface". I prefer to call this the "aperture channel". Longer aperture channels are associated with greater range. High note trills becoming easy too.
You seem to pay attention to my posts. Hey, they're not for everyone. I know it. Actually I chopped this one down to less than 20% of it's pre-edited length.
"Take what you want and leave the rest".
Is what I've always said (: _________________ "Check me if I'm wrong Sandy but if I kill all the golfers they're gonna lock me up & throw away the key"!
Joined: 24 Dec 2018 Posts: 3298 Location: Endwell NY USA
Posted: Fri May 22, 2020 6:26 am Post subject:
Lionel wrote:
... You seem to pay attention to my posts. Hey, they're not for everyone. I know it. Actually I chopped this one down to less than 20% of it's pre-edited length. ...
--------------------------
Lionel, yes I do get benefit from your posts. The information about your recent embouchure change and development has been enlightening for me.
Writing a clear and concise post is like carving a statue from a block of stone.
Remove everything that is not the 'beauty within'.
Jay _________________ Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'.
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