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Maintenance/Slide Questions


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JayKosta
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Joined: 24 Dec 2018
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Location: Endwell NY USA

PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2020 12:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Phoenix864 wrote:
...
JayKosta - Do you use alcohol on the Q-tip/rag? The film is definitely surface-level, it comes off very easily.

--------------------------------
I just wipe with a plain paper towel or tissue - no solvent or oil. And just a clean Q-tip.
I don't see a need to use solvent unless plain wiping doesn't leave a clean surface.
There's no need to get the metal 'squeaky clean', just remove the old lube & dirt, and apply fresh lube.

And I just use plain towel or tissue on the male slide legs, Q-tip inside the female legs, and on the inside of the male.
For slide lube, I was plain drug store Mineral Oil - it doesn't 'goop-up' like grease or lanolin can. I also use Mineral Oil on the pistons, followed with a drop or two of Al Cass (or some other petroleum based oil) to give good valve action.

Jay
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LittleRusty
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Joined: 11 Aug 2004
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Location: Santa Clara, Ca

PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2020 3:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JayKosta wrote:
Phoenix864 wrote:
...
JayKosta - Do you use alcohol on the Q-tip/rag? The film is definitely surface-level, it comes off very easily.

--------------------------------
I just wipe with a plain paper towel or tissue - no solvent or oil. And just a clean Q-tip.
I don't see a need to use solvent unless plain wiping doesn't leave a clean surface.
There's no need to get the metal 'squeaky clean', just remove the old lube & dirt, and apply fresh lube.

And I just use plain towel or tissue on the male slide legs, Q-tip inside the female legs, and on the inside of the male.
For slide lube, I was plain drug store Mineral Oil - it doesn't 'goop-up' like grease or lanolin can. I also use Mineral Oil on the pistons, followed with a drop or two of Al Cass (or some other petroleum based oil) to give good valve action.

Jay

Just for grins and giggles, almost every valve oil is petroleum based. The exceptions are oils like BerpBio oil.

This link from Ultra-Pure's website discusses this.

The link also had a note on why one should clean their valves when changing from traditional oils like Al Cass to synthetic. According to the link the possible issue isn't due to a chemical reaction, but is due to the cleaning nature of synthetics.

You learn something every day. The clean your valves when changing to a synthetic has been on here forever, but is normally attributed to chemical reactions.
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JayKosta
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Joined: 24 Dec 2018
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Location: Endwell NY USA

PostPosted: Sat May 23, 2020 6:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

LittleRusty wrote:

Just for grins and giggles, almost every valve oil is petroleum based. The exceptions are oils like BerpBio oil.

This link from Ultra-Pure's website discusses this.
...

-------------------------
It's not clear to me how the various synthetic oils are formulated - whether they derived from petroleum, vegetable, or animal sources.
See here for MSDS of Ultra-Pure oils -
LLINK

and

LINK

My general usage terminology is that a bottle that says "contains petroleum distillates' is 'petroleum based' and is likely suitable for mixing with Mineral Oil.

Jay
_________________
King Super 20 (S2 1048, HN White)
Bach 7
The 'next note' is the most important one.
Don't take a '20 minute mouthpiece' to a 1 hour session.
Looking out my backdoor
http://users.hancock.net/jkosta/2020_Aug_02_web.jpg
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LittleRusty
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Joined: 11 Aug 2004
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Location: Santa Clara, Ca

PostPosted: Sat May 23, 2020 11:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

JayKosta wrote:
LittleRusty wrote:

Just for grins and giggles, almost every valve oil is petroleum based. The exceptions are oils like BerpBio oil.

This link from Ultra-Pure's website discusses this.
...

-------------------------
It's not clear to me how the various synthetic oils are formulated - whether they derived from petroleum, vegetable, or animal sources.
See here for MSDS of Ultra-Pure oils -

and


My general usage terminology is that a bottle that says "contains petroleum distillates' is 'petroleum based' and is likely suitable for mixing with Mineral Oil.

Jay

The datasheet lists isomerized olefin which, according to a quick search, is a petroleum distillate.
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JayKosta
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Joined: 24 Dec 2018
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Location: Endwell NY USA

PostPosted: Sat May 23, 2020 6:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

LittleRusty wrote:

The datasheet lists isomerized olefin which, according to a quick search, is a petroleum distillate.

--------------------------------
The terminology for oils gets complicated. My understanding is that 'synthetic oils' (such as Ultra-Pure Valve Oil) is not considered a 'petroleum distillate'. The raw ingredients of the manufacturing process might include petroleum distillates, but they are chemically altered to more specific hydrocarbons and then those hydrocarbons are reassembled to make the 'synthetic oil'.
The olefin might also come from a vegetable source such as soybeans - e.g.
https://cen.acs.org/articles/83/i1/MAKING-OLEFINS-SOYBEANS.html

Regardless of the details, I think we both agree that some valve oils can cause problems when mixed. And cleaning the valves and cases before changing oils can avoid that problem.

Jay
_________________
King Super 20 (S2 1048, HN White)
Bach 7
The 'next note' is the most important one.
Don't take a '20 minute mouthpiece' to a 1 hour session.
Looking out my backdoor
http://users.hancock.net/jkosta/2020_Aug_02_web.jpg
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LittleRusty
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Joined: 11 Aug 2004
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PostPosted: Sat May 23, 2020 7:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My diversion down this path was due to wondering what “synthetic oil” is, not a desire to correct anything. It makes me glad to live in an age where we can quickly find information from the comfort of our armchairs.
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Phoenix864
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Joined: 20 May 2019
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PostPosted: Mon May 25, 2020 6:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cheiden - the unusual thing is that the residue does not seem to be coming from the valves. When I wiped them down prior to cleaning nothing came off - they appeared to be perfectly clean.

JWG - the residue does appear similar to what the valves were producing shortly after I got the horn. However, I never have stood the horn vertically as I don't own a trumpet stand - it's always been lying horizontally. The valves have also been quite clean. Each time I clean I spray water through the inside of each valve. No debris came out during my latest cleaning. I appreciate the trick nevertheless - I'll keep that in mind for the future.

OldSchoolEuph - thanks for the recommendation. If the residue reappears after my switch to Ultrapure grease, I'll give that a shot. So far so good, though.

JayKosta - thanks for the recommendation as well - I'll also keep that in mind. Would you recommend only following up with a petroleum-based oil, or would a 'synthetic' such as Ultrapure also be acceptable to mix with the mineral oil?

Lastly, is there anything worth checking regarding the 'scratchy' feeling when inserting and spinning the slide legs? The feeling persists even after the cleaning - both slide tubes look to be perfectly smooth.
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JayKosta
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Joined: 24 Dec 2018
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Location: Endwell NY USA

PostPosted: Tue May 26, 2020 5:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Phoenix864 wrote:
...
JayKosta - thanks for the recommendation as well - I'll also keep that in mind. Would you recommend only following up with a petroleum-based oil, or would a 'synthetic' such as Ultrapure also be acceptable to mix with the mineral oil?

Lastly, is there anything worth checking regarding the 'scratchy' feeling when inserting and spinning the slide legs? The feeling persists even after the cleaning - both slide tubes look to be perfectly smooth.

-----------------------
I don't have experience with Ultra-Pure valve oil, but it is a hydrocarbon oil (not silicone) so it might mix ok with mineral oil - I use Al Cass.

Since the slide legs feel scratchy when 'spinning' each leg individually, I suspect a slight out-of-roundness, or a tiny 'tight spot'. And there any noticeable 'bright marks' on the male legs that would indicate excessive contact?

Jay
_________________
King Super 20 (S2 1048, HN White)
Bach 7
The 'next note' is the most important one.
Don't take a '20 minute mouthpiece' to a 1 hour session.
Looking out my backdoor
http://users.hancock.net/jkosta/2020_Aug_02_web.jpg
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Phoenix864
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Joined: 20 May 2019
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PostPosted: Wed May 27, 2020 4:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JayKosta wrote:
Phoenix864 wrote:
...
JayKosta - thanks for the recommendation as well - I'll also keep that in mind. Would you recommend only following up with a petroleum-based oil, or would a 'synthetic' such as Ultrapure also be acceptable to mix with the mineral oil?

Lastly, is there anything worth checking regarding the 'scratchy' feeling when inserting and spinning the slide legs? The feeling persists even after the cleaning - both slide tubes look to be perfectly smooth.

-----------------------
I don't have experience with Ultra-Pure valve oil, but it is a hydrocarbon oil (not silicone) so it might mix ok with mineral oil - I use Al Cass.

Since the slide legs feel scratchy when 'spinning' each leg individually, I suspect a slight out-of-roundness, or a tiny 'tight spot'. And there any noticeable 'bright marks' on the male legs that would indicate excessive contact?

Jay


There are a few spots on the slide tubes that appear to be marked a bit more than the rest of the tube (unfortunately the grease and lighting rather obfuscate them):





Since the 3rd slide also seems to be very tight, I wouldn't be surprised if there was a tight spot on the MTS as well. I guess that's another thing to discuss with a tech.
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JayKosta
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Joined: 24 Dec 2018
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Location: Endwell NY USA

PostPosted: Thu May 28, 2020 3:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The long scratches along the length of the tubing might mean small burrs on the inside of the female tube. Most like at the mouth of the tube - try feeling the inside edge of the female tube with a finger tip.

The 'bright spot' might be a slight rise in the male tube at that location. DON'T try to sand or file it, a tech can likely use a burnisher or 'tube rounding die' to create the proper fit. It's not a situation of metal having to be removed, just having the existing metal adjusted for roundness.

Jay
_________________
King Super 20 (S2 1048, HN White)
Bach 7
The 'next note' is the most important one.
Don't take a '20 minute mouthpiece' to a 1 hour session.
Looking out my backdoor
http://users.hancock.net/jkosta/2020_Aug_02_web.jpg
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Phoenix864
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Joined: 20 May 2019
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PostPosted: Sun May 31, 2020 1:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JayKosta wrote:
The long scratches along the length of the tubing might mean small burrs on the inside of the female tube. Most like at the mouth of the tube - try feeling the inside edge of the female tube with a finger tip.

The 'bright spot' might be a slight rise in the male tube at that location. DON'T try to sand or file it, a tech can likely use a burnisher or 'tube rounding die' to create the proper fit. It's not a situation of metal having to be removed, just having the existing metal adjusted for roundness.

Jay


The receiver tubes seem smooth - I've seen similar lines across a few horns, they seem to appear due to the interaction between light and the grease on the slide. I'll still ask a tech to check for burs - it's hard to say if there are burs located further back in the tubes.

I'll definitely ask a tech to check the roundness/uniformity of the tube - hopefully that will also take care of some of the roughness felt when spinning the tube.

Thanks for the recommendations, once techs reopen in my area it sounds like it should be a pretty quick and easy solution to these problems.
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OldSchoolEuph
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Joined: 07 Apr 2012
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 01, 2020 1:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

For looking inside the horn, USB borescopes that Windows will recognize by default are pretty cheap on Amazon. You just have to completely clean things first. (great for looking for early red rot too)
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LittleRusty
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Joined: 11 Aug 2004
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Location: Santa Clara, Ca

PostPosted: Mon Jun 01, 2020 9:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

OldSchoolEuph wrote:
For looking inside the horn, USB borescopes that Windows will recognize by default are pretty cheap on Amazon. You just have to completely clean things first. (great for looking for early red rot too)

This is true, but be sure you get one with a small enough diameter to fit into the tubing.
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