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Mouthpiece Recommendations



 
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Phoenix864
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PostPosted: Wed May 20, 2020 7:06 pm    Post subject: Mouthpiece Recommendations Reply with quote

Hi all,

For about the past 6 years, I have been playing on a stock Bach 3c. However, I've recently begun to notice some shortcomings in my playing that I feel are further fostered by my current mouthpiece. I'm wondering if I might see some improvement by looking at other piece options.

My previous instructor is a Warburton distributor and has their build-a-mouthpiece kit. I'll be meeting with him in June to try a few different configurations, but until then I was wondering if others might be willing to offer their perspective/recommendation on replacement options.

I'm currently in university for a trumpet performance degree, so I play a wide variety of music, though recently my focus has been more on chamber and modern music.

The issues I've been experiencing:

When playing at the top of my range, the backpressure becomes incredibly intense, making it very difficult to play any higher. I don't feel like I'm shoving the horn into my face nor going rigid with my lips - I think that if there was less resistance I would be able to get out one or two half-steps more.

When quickly ascending, my tone occasionally ends up as air. This happens even well within my maximum range. I'm wondering if less resistance from the mouthpiece might help alleviate this issue.

Finally, I've been having some issues with consistency/response across my range. Sometimes everything's fine, other times notes refuse to speak.

While it's quite possible these issues are not related to the mouthpiece, I thought trying a few alternatives might be worth a shot, especially as I've been on the same piece for years.

From my understanding, it sounds like going with a sharper rim, shallower cup, and more open backbore might help with these issues. However, I'm very open to any recommendations/advice.

Thanks.
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blbaumgarn
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PostPosted: Wed May 20, 2020 9:55 pm    Post subject: Mouthpiece recommendations Reply with quote

As a university student it is darned important to get it figured out. Because you cited playing chamber and modern I thought perhaps opening up the backbore some would help. I had four instructors in my life and I trusted them implicitly. Spending some money on a mouthpiece to correct your sound will be well worth it. Good Luck
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JVL
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PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2020 2:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

hello
even if i think the wrong equipment can produce many issues and the right equipement will help a lot, i think in your case, your mpc can't cause a backpressure in the top of your range "incrediblely intense".
Check if the mpc and horn are clean and free from hidden little things inside.

Then, i recommend a skype lesson with Bobby Shew for instance
best
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JayKosta
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PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2020 5:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The trouble you describe seems more like an embouchure issue, rather than mouthpiece.
I suspect the 'back pressure' is being caused inside your mouth, not by the mouthpiece itself.

I suggest talking with your instructors about details of:
Jaw position and use
Upper and lower mouthpiece rim pressure
Tongue positioning

It's likely you have developed some 'less optimal' embouchure techniques that have worked adequately previously, but are now hindering more improvement.

Jay
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cheiden
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PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2020 7:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can think of a number of reasons why someone would consider migrating from the 3C but your problems are not what comes to mind.

And a 3C is already somewhat shallow. Going shallower unless you seeking something of a lead pieces seems ill advised. And the next shallower 3 is a 3D which comes stock with a tighter 76 backbore because that's usually what works with a shallower piece.

Might be worth trying a Curry 3C. They have a different blow that I think qualify as more open.

If you want to try a sharper rim you could easily go for a 5C.
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juanc
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PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2020 1:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I strongly recommend Patrick mouthpieces, their rims are great! Just write an email to Steve and he will tell you what will be the best piece in their line for you.
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Phoenix864
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PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2020 9:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for all the advice - It sounds like my issues are probably more embouchure-related than mouthpiece-related. Is it still worth trying out a few other mouthpiece options, or would it be best to keep the mouthpiece familiar while trying to relearn/refine embouchure behavior?

JayKosta - I appreciate the list, I'll definitely raise those topics during my next lesson.
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HaveTrumpetWillTravel
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PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2020 10:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm an amateur, but I think it's not all bad to do a mouthpiece safari because it shows you things about your playing that you didn't know. I've spent a couple of hundred dollars on mouthpieces, and at the least it's shown me: (1) what I can and can't play, (2) how much variation in sound I can get from a mouthpiece, and (3) how mouthpieces might interact with particular instruments. I don't think it would hurt you to try the range of bigger/smaller, tighter/more open, deeper/shallower. At the least you eliminate one possible source for your problems
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Tpt_Guy
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PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2020 10:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Does this backpressure occur at all dynamics or only when louder or softer?

Have you adjusted your playing approach (with the aid of a competent teacher) to try to solve this?

Have you tested the mouthpiece gap?

If you have addressed the above and the problem persists, the mouthpiece could be the culprit. I know that if I play on tighter backbores, even on shallow lead mouthpieces with "high compression" backbores, they play incredibly flat (some by a half step or more). When I "increase support" to push the pitch up, the backpressure makes me feel like my head will pop and my chest aches.

A modern Bach 10 backbore is, for me, pretty much junk. That's the standard backbore on Bach C cup mouthpieces, and for me it plays flat and stuffy. But I have a late 60s Corp 3C and the backbore on that works. The Frost MTV backbore is a copy of a Mt. Vernon 1C backbore (a #10 according to the literature of the day). I have that cut into both a 1-1/2B and a 3B underpart, and it works like a charm. The Frost MTV and late 60s Bach 10 are both more open than a modern Bach 10 backbore. So for me, open backbores help.

Another factor is gap. I have a couple mouthpieces that were stuffy up high and the partials were tough to reach. Having them modified for Reeves sleeves and using a narrower gap handled the issue on those mouthpieces for me.

Trying various combinations with the Warburton system may be the way to go, but I would advise that if you try a combination that works, use it for an extended period to ensure the "honeymoon phase" doesn't expire. Don't just play it for 2 minutes and declare it the final answer. Further, don't just go with how it feels. Have another set of ears present to hear how you sound. I've had my share of mouthpieces that felt great to play, but they sounded "comfortable" - no excitement, nothing memorable.
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Jon Arnold
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PostPosted: Sat May 23, 2020 3:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

juanc wrote:
I strongly recommend Patrick mouthpieces, their rims are great! Just write an email to Steve and he will tell you what will be the best piece in their line for you.


Agreed. Just picked up several Patricks and love them. So many great choices out there. I would also suggest a fitting with a reputable dealer.
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Yamahaguy
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PostPosted: Sat May 23, 2020 6:32 am    Post subject: Re: Mouthpiece Recommendations Reply with quote

Phoenix864 wrote:
My previous instructor is a Warburton distributor and has their build-a-mouthpiece kit. I'll be meeting with him in June to try a few different configurations, but until then I was wondering if others might be willing to offer their perspective/recommendation on replacement options.
Many good responses so far, and while your issues may be embouchure
related, a more efficient mouthpiece is definitely not out of the question.

Many years ago I had the same opportunity to try the various combinations. It's
also nice to have another set of ears to balance what you think you hear and feel.
Anyway, for me the perfect match was a 4MC top with 8 backbore.

Have some fun and experiment, hopefully you can spend a few days with him
and try out a bunch of stuff!
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Phoenix864
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PostPosted: Sat May 23, 2020 9:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

HaveTrumpetWillTravel/Yamahaguy - good to hear. I definitely am looking forward to trying a variety of pieces. After so many years on the 3c I'm hoping something might work a bit better for me.

Tpt_Guy - In the mid register, the backpressure occurs only when playing loud - the horn feels like it choaks up, though my head still feels normal. In the extreme upper register (ie f above high c and higher) the pressure occurs at any dynamic - I feel significant uncomfortable pressure in my head, but the horn does not feel like it's choking up.

I've discussed both issues with my instructor. It's been a while since my last in-person lesson due to COVID-19, but as of my last in-person lesson he did not see any particularly noticeable issues with my embouchure/technique. In my next in-person lesson I do plan to take another closer look at my embouchure/technique.

The feeling you describe when playing tighter backbores sounds very similar to what I have been running into. I definitely plan on trying a more open backbore (probably one of the star-type Warburton ones). Interesting note on the gap - that is something I haven't experimented with yet, but would like to.

Thanks for all the advice.
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Christian K. Peters
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PostPosted: Sat May 23, 2020 9:32 am    Post subject: mouthpiece recommendation Reply with quote

Hello all,
I agree that the 3C is already as shallow a piece as one should go...at least as a classical road is to be followed. My experience is with Bach, Schilke and Warburton pieces. From talking to university types in my area, It seems like the trend is bigger and working on the embouchure strength. The 1.5 and 1.25 Bachs seem to be the norm, along with some Monettes of comparable sound. lately, following Hardenberger and Jim Wilt, I seem to have moved to a Schilke 14, to get the sound I am hearing from them. I have a Warburton 4MD, but probably need a 4D..the 5D and 5XD just does not have the same width even though I am getting to the limit on how big my face can handle. So at the moment, it is embouchure strength and endurance for me. You did not mention horn as part of the equation. If I feel resistance, it usually is in my throat as I tense up thinking about the range of the piece I am playing.
Equipment aside...My third year in college was the eye-opener. That is when I could see where my talent was and was not. It is good to have a plan B. Started at 12 and still enjoy playing at 63...almost daily. You will find your answer..maybe not as soon as you want.
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JayKosta
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PostPosted: Sat May 23, 2020 9:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Phoenix864 wrote:
... In my next in-person lesson I do plan to take another closer look at my embouchure/technique. ...

----------------------------------------------------
I'd ask the teacher to carefully WATCH your jaw movement, appearance of throat tightening, and mouthpiece pressure distribution.
In addition to what is seen, hopefully there is discussion and explanation about how those things affect your playing.

You might also want to experiment a bit with active use of tongue arch to assist your embouchure in the upper range.

If the teacher has difficulty with explaining what is seen, then perhaps ask him to describe the 'whats' and 'whys' of how he plays.

Jay
_________________
Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'.
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lipshurt
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PostPosted: Sat May 23, 2020 10:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Don’t mess with mouthpieces if those are your problems
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nltrumpet
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Joined: 11 Nov 2019
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Location: Washington DC

PostPosted: Mon May 25, 2020 12:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can't say whether or not changing equipment will help you. However, when my Bach 3C was my primary piece, I ended up coming back to it, and people said there was a certain quality of a fuller sound.

I bought it secondhand, so it definitely shows it's age. I had a buddy measure the throat with his little rod set, and we found out that the throat was actually somewhere between a 26 and a 25, despite not appearing altered.

Perhaps something that may help with the backpressure in the high range would be to order another 3C with a more open throat. It certainly helped me when I did that with a 1 1/2C a few years ago.

Good luck
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gwood66
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PostPosted: Mon May 25, 2020 5:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have played some variant of a 3C the majority of my high school years and all 5 years of my comeback. I purchased a GR 66MS about a year ago and would recommend that piece to anyone who plays a 3C.

I looked at some of your previous posts and it appears that you are playing a Bach AB190S and it probably has the stock 25 leadpipe. The specs are similar to the 180ML I played until recently. I used to experience the same feeling of back pressure you describe as I ascended above a high C and I also used to frequently airball notes between middle C and high C. Here are two things that I did which may or may not work for you.

The first thing I did was reduce the waterkey spring tension based on a tip I got on the now defunct TrumpetMaster. The horn went from feeling like driving a farm truck without power steering to driving a Chrysler 300S. It really made the horn feel more open and may be something to check.

The second and probably most important thing I did was stop trying to muscle the horn around by focusing on using the correct amount of air. You could be overblowing which may be leading to the feeling of the horn backing up. For me that feeling was also exacerbated by the amount of clamping down I was doing with my lips when ascending into the upper register. I fixed that by focusing on playing pedals (mainly the false pedals between F and C#) with strict form. Then following that up by playing into the high register trying to maintain the same feeling of relaxation needed to play the pedals.

Hope you get things figured out.
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Phoenix864
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PostPosted: Mon May 25, 2020 5:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JayKosta - I appreciate the technique recommendations - I'll specifically bring those aspects up with both my previous and current instructor when I next see them.

lipshurt - Would you recommend instead focusing on addressing the issues through an embrasure-focused approach? When would you say might be a good time to look into other mouthpieces?

nltrumpet - Thanks for the recommendation - I do plan on trying some more open throats when messing around with the Warburton kit. I've just been a bit wary of the reported disadvantages that come with a larger throat.

gwood66 - I'm actually no longer on the AB190S (the horn ended up having numerous build issues). The shop allowed me to swap it for another horn, so I'm now playing a Schagerl James Morrison Meister. I don't think it's a massively different design, but I'm not positive on how the leadpipe stacks up to the Bach. Did you move off the 180ML to a more open horn?

Interesting note about the water key spring. Was the adjustment slight (something like a 1/8th or 1/4th turn) or much larger?

I do tend to play in a very physical/intense manner - I'll work on trying to back off and relax a bit and see if that helps.

Thanks for all the advice.
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