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CJceltics33
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PostPosted: Tue May 26, 2020 7:54 am    Post subject: Comes and goes and comes and goes... Reply with quote

I have awful range, and have ever since my embouchure change two years ago. Range growth since then has been pretty nonexistent. I'll have periods of a few weeks where I can play a high C, then a few months where I can barely play an A, etc etc. In order to combat this, I have to completely tailor my practice around it. I don't play below low C, I play above the staff in every practice session, and I have to do certain Schlossberg exercises. I stop for two days? I lose a third of range. I can't seem to get out of this cycle.




I have very credible teachers and I have tried other mouthpieces.
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mafields627
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PostPosted: Tue May 26, 2020 8:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What did you change about your embouchure and why did you make the change?
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kehaulani
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PostPosted: Tue May 26, 2020 8:43 am    Post subject: Re: Comes and goes and comes and goes... Reply with quote

….
CJceltics33 wrote:
I have awful range, and have ever since my embouchure change two years ago.


As the saying goes, "What's wrong with this picture?"

If I were you, I'd get a couple of Skype lessons with Clint "Pop" McLaughlin. He's got a track record with helping out people with chop problems. And a good teacher can see your problem, not something hypothetical with words over the internet.

http://www.bbtrumpet.com/product-category/lessons/web-cam-lesson/
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JayKosta
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PostPosted: Tue May 26, 2020 8:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Read my list of Embouchure Basic Concepts - here
http://users.hancock.net/jkosta/Embouchure_Basic_Concepts.docx

There is much 'fine tuning' that needs to be done on an individual basis. But if you are deviating too much from these basics, then it's worthwhile to recognize that, and to understand how it affects your playing.

Using those concepts as a starting point for discussion, are there major differences in what you are doing?

Jay
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CJceltics33
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PostPosted: Tue May 26, 2020 8:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My teacher facilitated the change. I previously had far too much bottom lip in the mouthpiece, and the change evened it out. All aspects of my playing have greatly improved (except range) since.
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kehaulani
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PostPosted: Tue May 26, 2020 8:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

….
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Last edited by kehaulani on Tue May 26, 2020 9:15 am; edited 1 time in total
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CJceltics33
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PostPosted: Tue May 26, 2020 8:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kehualini, I am extremely hesitant to contact Clint McGlaughlin because I don't love his stuff. I have a few of his books, and none have helped. I even bought a didjeridoo to no avail. I don't really want to spend an additional 150 on a lesson with him.
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kehaulani
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PostPosted: Tue May 26, 2020 9:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fair enough.
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cheiden
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PostPosted: Tue May 26, 2020 11:02 am    Post subject: Re: Comes and goes and comes and goes... Reply with quote

CJceltics33 wrote:
I have awful range, and have ever since my embouchure change two years ago. Range growth since then has been pretty nonexistent. I'll have periods of a few weeks where I can play a high C, then a few months where I can barely play an A, etc etc. In order to combat this, I have to completely tailor my practice around it. I don't play below low C, I play above the staff in every practice session, and I have to do certain Schlossberg exercises. I stop for two days? I lose a third of range. I can't seem to get out of this cycle.

I have very credible teachers and I have tried other mouthpieces.

Maybe it's just me but if I don't play below the staff the upper end of my range goes to hell. If you're eliminating playing low trying to extend you range upward this can be a losing battle.

FWIW I always start of with the iconic Stamp routine descending at a comfortably full volume with the goal of getting the center of my embouchure to be pliable. I'd advise going down to F#.

Then I rest.

Then I use the Stamp scales upward at a somewhat reduced volume specifically to reengage the mechanisms needed for playing higher (lips, pivot, tongue,....). Don't play higher than comfortable. This isn't a range exercise.

Then rest.

Then I recommend a slurred interval exercise to so that you can focus on shifting between intervals with the most efficient use of movement and tension.

Starting this way every time I play I rarely have the kind of inconsistencies you describe. Before I was this methodical I struggled a lot like you describe.
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JVL
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PostPosted: Tue May 26, 2020 11:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

hello CG
contact Bobby Shew
best
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Al Innella
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PostPosted: Wed May 27, 2020 7:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi CJ,

You said you changed your embouchure,but what you described was a change of mouthpiece placement,not embouchure. Types of embouchure can be upstream,down stream,roll in ,roll out,pucker etc.. All can be played on the same mouthpiece placement.Maybe what you need is real embouchure change. Embouchure is a technique,it's the way we use our lips to produce different pitches, high,low and everything in between.
All the long tones,lip slurs scales etc. won't help that much if your embouchure(technique) is faulty. You might have try different teachers until you find one that works for you.

Good luck,

Al
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kehaulani
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PostPosted: Wed May 27, 2020 7:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Al Innella wrote:
All the long tones,lip slurs scales etc. won't help that much if your embouchure(technique) is faulty.


Amen and a point that can be, and is, overlooked.

I had chop problem in college and had to take a semester off with no playing. Then my teacher started rebuilding my chops, but with the same books and exercises and with the same embouchure. The non-results were predictable.

It wasn't until years later, as a woodwind player, that I discovered the problem. All the right books and exercises in the world don't help if they're founded on a faulty embouchure. You just perfect bad playing.
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Getzen Capri Cornet
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coraltrpt
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Joined: 18 Oct 2016
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PostPosted: Wed May 27, 2020 8:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not to get further into the weeds here: but if you would be comfortable posting a video playing some simple scales or exercises (with a good view of your setup) maybe we can get a better picture of what’s happening.

I know Tom Hooten does Skype lessons. He went through a major embouchure change and has a wealth of knowledge on the mechanics. Might be worth it. I took a lesson with him a while back and it was very helpful.
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CJceltics33
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PostPosted: Wed May 27, 2020 7:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Im not opposed to posting a video and if I can figure it out I will!

I am curious if my embouchure is faulty. What are some symptoms? Why do I have good range on occasion if this is the case?
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Lionel
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PostPosted: Wed May 27, 2020 8:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CJceltics33 wrote:
Im not opposed to posting a video and if I can figure it out I will!

I am curious if my embouchure is faulty. What are some symptoms? Why do I have good range on occasion if this is the case?


C/J,
Long time no see. Sounds like you've become a music major since we last chatted. Congratulations!
Feel free to call anytime dude. You've got my number. Still the same. Best regards!
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JayKosta
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PostPosted: Thu May 28, 2020 4:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CJceltics33 wrote:
... I am curious if my embouchure is faulty. What are some symptoms? Why do I have good range on occasion if this is the case?

-------------------------------
Symptoms -
Lip pain or injury, sore or tender teeth.
Contact of lower teeth with upper teeth..
Not being able to blow air through your lips.

Jay
_________________
Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'.
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Rod Haney
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 10, 2020 11:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CJceltics33 wrote:
kehualini, I am extremely hesitant to contact Clint McGlaughlin because I don't love his stuff. I have a few of his books, and none have helped. I even bought a didjeridoo to no avail. I don't really want to spend an additional 150 on a lesson with him.


Get ahold of Bobby Shew
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INTJ
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Joined: 25 Dec 2002
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 11, 2020 8:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I went through the same thing as CJceltics33 when I was in high school. As a Junior High student (Grades 7-9) I had the ability to play above High C regularly. My tone wasn't great and my intonation wasn't great.

When I started High School in 10th grade I started taking lessons for the first time. Instead of tweaking my embouchure to fix my issues we did a wholesale change of my embouchure to the "firm corners and flat chin embouchure". From that day on I couldn't play above the staff. I topped out at G. However, everything else in my playing improved.

This didn't get fixed for two years so it was decreed that I just didn't "have it" for trumpet and I switched to French Horn. On Horn I could play past High C. I even was a music major in my freshmen year of college, but since Horn isn't what I wanted to do I quit music all together and became a USAF pilot for 24 years.

Six years before I left the USAF I started playing trumpet again. It had been over 20 years since I played. I was determined that I wasn't going to stick with it unless I was able to develop an upper range.

Playing the way that felt right to me I was again able to play a little above High C, but again my overall playing wasn't good. The only thing I knew was to NOT use a flat chin. Fortunately, I found Pops right after I started playing again.

I played my first High G (4 ledger lines) four years later. I started regularity performing the High Gs in concerts eight years after Pops. I played my first DHC in a concert 13 years after Pops. That was five years ago at age 55. I have also had one-time lessons with others to include: A couple of local Pros, Roger Ingraham, Chris Labarbra, Mark Zauss, and Jim Manley. Each of them gave me something I use. However, my chops development was all Pops. Not sure Pops works without at least one in-person lesson.

Today I play in a big band that focuses on Basie and Ellington type stuff. I am the lead player. We play two hour gigs with a 10-15 minute break in between. I am stretched to make it through those sets, as many Basie shout sections are endurance challenging. However, I play in tune, have a good sound, my style is coming along nicely, and I usually still have my High G at the end. We'll see for sure when he band starts back up.

I gave my history to show a couple of things. Not every teacher knows what they are teaching. If an embouchure change doesn't start working in 3-4 months, it isn't right for you. For me, but error was the flat chin. The bunched chin fixed my range issues. The Manley Wedge breath has fixed my breathing.

It's time for you to make a change.....
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