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CJceltics33 Veteran Member
Joined: 24 Aug 2017 Posts: 475
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Posted: Tue May 26, 2020 7:54 am Post subject: Comes and goes and comes and goes... |
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I have awful range, and have ever since my embouchure change two years ago. Range growth since then has been pretty nonexistent. I'll have periods of a few weeks where I can play a high C, then a few months where I can barely play an A, etc etc. In order to combat this, I have to completely tailor my practice around it. I don't play below low C, I play above the staff in every practice session, and I have to do certain Schlossberg exercises. I stop for two days? I lose a third of range. I can't seem to get out of this cycle.
I have very credible teachers and I have tried other mouthpieces. |
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mafields627 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 09 Nov 2001 Posts: 3776 Location: AL
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Posted: Tue May 26, 2020 8:04 am Post subject: |
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What did you change about your embouchure and why did you make the change? _________________ --Matt--
No representation is made that the quality of this post is greater than the quality of that of any other poster. Oh, and get a teacher! |
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kehaulani Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 9025 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
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Posted: Tue May 26, 2020 8:43 am Post subject: Re: Comes and goes and comes and goes... |
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…. CJceltics33 wrote: | I have awful range, and have ever since my embouchure change two years ago. |
As the saying goes, "What's wrong with this picture?"
If I were you, I'd get a couple of Skype lessons with Clint "Pop" McLaughlin. He's got a track record with helping out people with chop problems. And a good teacher can see your problem, not something hypothetical with words over the internet.
http://www.bbtrumpet.com/product-category/lessons/web-cam-lesson/ _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Benge 3X Cornet
Adams F-1 Flghn
Last edited by kehaulani on Tue May 26, 2020 8:53 am; edited 1 time in total |
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JayKosta Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2018 Posts: 3303 Location: Endwell NY USA
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Posted: Tue May 26, 2020 8:50 am Post subject: |
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Read my list of Embouchure Basic Concepts - here
http://users.hancock.net/jkosta/Embouchure_Basic_Concepts.docx
There is much 'fine tuning' that needs to be done on an individual basis. But if you are deviating too much from these basics, then it's worthwhile to recognize that, and to understand how it affects your playing.
Using those concepts as a starting point for discussion, are there major differences in what you are doing?
Jay _________________ Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'. |
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CJceltics33 Veteran Member
Joined: 24 Aug 2017 Posts: 475
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Posted: Tue May 26, 2020 8:52 am Post subject: |
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My teacher facilitated the change. I previously had far too much bottom lip in the mouthpiece, and the change evened it out. All aspects of my playing have greatly improved (except range) since. |
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kehaulani Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 9025 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
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Posted: Tue May 26, 2020 8:56 am Post subject: |
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…. _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Benge 3X Cornet
Adams F-1 Flghn
Last edited by kehaulani on Tue May 26, 2020 9:15 am; edited 1 time in total |
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CJceltics33 Veteran Member
Joined: 24 Aug 2017 Posts: 475
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Posted: Tue May 26, 2020 8:58 am Post subject: |
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kehualini, I am extremely hesitant to contact Clint McGlaughlin because I don't love his stuff. I have a few of his books, and none have helped. I even bought a didjeridoo to no avail. I don't really want to spend an additional 150 on a lesson with him. |
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kehaulani Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 9025 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
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Posted: Tue May 26, 2020 9:23 am Post subject: |
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Fair enough. _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Benge 3X Cornet
Adams F-1 Flghn |
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cheiden Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Sep 2004 Posts: 8914 Location: Orange County, CA
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Posted: Tue May 26, 2020 11:02 am Post subject: Re: Comes and goes and comes and goes... |
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CJceltics33 wrote: | I have awful range, and have ever since my embouchure change two years ago. Range growth since then has been pretty nonexistent. I'll have periods of a few weeks where I can play a high C, then a few months where I can barely play an A, etc etc. In order to combat this, I have to completely tailor my practice around it. I don't play below low C, I play above the staff in every practice session, and I have to do certain Schlossberg exercises. I stop for two days? I lose a third of range. I can't seem to get out of this cycle.
I have very credible teachers and I have tried other mouthpieces. |
Maybe it's just me but if I don't play below the staff the upper end of my range goes to hell. If you're eliminating playing low trying to extend you range upward this can be a losing battle.
FWIW I always start of with the iconic Stamp routine descending at a comfortably full volume with the goal of getting the center of my embouchure to be pliable. I'd advise going down to F#.
Then I rest.
Then I use the Stamp scales upward at a somewhat reduced volume specifically to reengage the mechanisms needed for playing higher (lips, pivot, tongue,....). Don't play higher than comfortable. This isn't a range exercise.
Then rest.
Then I recommend a slurred interval exercise to so that you can focus on shifting between intervals with the most efficient use of movement and tension.
Starting this way every time I play I rarely have the kind of inconsistencies you describe. Before I was this methodical I struggled a lot like you describe. _________________ "I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Benge 1X C/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart |
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JVL Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Feb 2016 Posts: 894 Location: Nissa, France
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Posted: Tue May 26, 2020 11:14 am Post subject: |
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hello CG
contact Bobby Shew
best |
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Al Innella Heavyweight Member
Joined: 08 Jul 2008 Posts: 755 Location: Levittown NY
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Posted: Wed May 27, 2020 7:20 am Post subject: |
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Hi CJ,
You said you changed your embouchure,but what you described was a change of mouthpiece placement,not embouchure. Types of embouchure can be upstream,down stream,roll in ,roll out,pucker etc.. All can be played on the same mouthpiece placement.Maybe what you need is real embouchure change. Embouchure is a technique,it's the way we use our lips to produce different pitches, high,low and everything in between.
All the long tones,lip slurs scales etc. won't help that much if your embouchure(technique) is faulty. You might have try different teachers until you find one that works for you.
Good luck,
Al |
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kehaulani Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 9025 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
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Posted: Wed May 27, 2020 7:55 am Post subject: |
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Al Innella wrote: | All the long tones,lip slurs scales etc. won't help that much if your embouchure(technique) is faulty. |
Amen and a point that can be, and is, overlooked.
I had chop problem in college and had to take a semester off with no playing. Then my teacher started rebuilding my chops, but with the same books and exercises and with the same embouchure. The non-results were predictable.
It wasn't until years later, as a woodwind player, that I discovered the problem. All the right books and exercises in the world don't help if they're founded on a faulty embouchure. You just perfect bad playing. _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Benge 3X Cornet
Adams F-1 Flghn |
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coraltrpt Regular Member
Joined: 18 Oct 2016 Posts: 88
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Posted: Wed May 27, 2020 8:40 am Post subject: |
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Not to get further into the weeds here: but if you would be comfortable posting a video playing some simple scales or exercises (with a good view of your setup) maybe we can get a better picture of what’s happening.
I know Tom Hooten does Skype lessons. He went through a major embouchure change and has a wealth of knowledge on the mechanics. Might be worth it. I took a lesson with him a while back and it was very helpful. |
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CJceltics33 Veteran Member
Joined: 24 Aug 2017 Posts: 475
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Posted: Wed May 27, 2020 7:29 pm Post subject: |
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Im not opposed to posting a video and if I can figure it out I will!
I am curious if my embouchure is faulty. What are some symptoms? Why do I have good range on occasion if this is the case? |
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Lionel Heavyweight Member
Joined: 25 Jul 2016 Posts: 783
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Posted: Wed May 27, 2020 8:35 pm Post subject: |
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CJceltics33 wrote: | Im not opposed to posting a video and if I can figure it out I will!
I am curious if my embouchure is faulty. What are some symptoms? Why do I have good range on occasion if this is the case? |
C/J,
Long time no see. Sounds like you've become a music major since we last chatted. Congratulations!
Feel free to call anytime dude. You've got my number. Still the same. Best regards! _________________ "Check me if I'm wrong Sandy but if I kill all the golfers they're gonna lock me up & throw away the key"!
Carl Spackler (aka Bill Murray, 1980). |
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JayKosta Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2018 Posts: 3303 Location: Endwell NY USA
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Posted: Thu May 28, 2020 4:01 am Post subject: |
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CJceltics33 wrote: | ... I am curious if my embouchure is faulty. What are some symptoms? Why do I have good range on occasion if this is the case? |
-------------------------------
Symptoms -
Lip pain or injury, sore or tender teeth.
Contact of lower teeth with upper teeth..
Not being able to blow air through your lips.
Jay _________________ Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'. |
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Rod Haney Heavyweight Member
Joined: 22 Aug 2015 Posts: 937
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Posted: Wed Jun 10, 2020 11:16 am Post subject: |
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CJceltics33 wrote: | kehualini, I am extremely hesitant to contact Clint McGlaughlin because I don't love his stuff. I have a few of his books, and none have helped. I even bought a didjeridoo to no avail. I don't really want to spend an additional 150 on a lesson with him. |
Get ahold of Bobby Shew |
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INTJ Heavyweight Member
Joined: 25 Dec 2002 Posts: 1986 Location: Northern Idaho
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Posted: Thu Jun 11, 2020 8:57 pm Post subject: |
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I went through the same thing as CJceltics33 when I was in high school. As a Junior High student (Grades 7-9) I had the ability to play above High C regularly. My tone wasn't great and my intonation wasn't great.
When I started High School in 10th grade I started taking lessons for the first time. Instead of tweaking my embouchure to fix my issues we did a wholesale change of my embouchure to the "firm corners and flat chin embouchure". From that day on I couldn't play above the staff. I topped out at G. However, everything else in my playing improved.
This didn't get fixed for two years so it was decreed that I just didn't "have it" for trumpet and I switched to French Horn. On Horn I could play past High C. I even was a music major in my freshmen year of college, but since Horn isn't what I wanted to do I quit music all together and became a USAF pilot for 24 years.
Six years before I left the USAF I started playing trumpet again. It had been over 20 years since I played. I was determined that I wasn't going to stick with it unless I was able to develop an upper range.
Playing the way that felt right to me I was again able to play a little above High C, but again my overall playing wasn't good. The only thing I knew was to NOT use a flat chin. Fortunately, I found Pops right after I started playing again.
I played my first High G (4 ledger lines) four years later. I started regularity performing the High Gs in concerts eight years after Pops. I played my first DHC in a concert 13 years after Pops. That was five years ago at age 55. I have also had one-time lessons with others to include: A couple of local Pros, Roger Ingraham, Chris Labarbra, Mark Zauss, and Jim Manley. Each of them gave me something I use. However, my chops development was all Pops. Not sure Pops works without at least one in-person lesson.
Today I play in a big band that focuses on Basie and Ellington type stuff. I am the lead player. We play two hour gigs with a 10-15 minute break in between. I am stretched to make it through those sets, as many Basie shout sections are endurance challenging. However, I play in tune, have a good sound, my style is coming along nicely, and I usually still have my High G at the end. We'll see for sure when he band starts back up.
I gave my history to show a couple of things. Not every teacher knows what they are teaching. If an embouchure change doesn't start working in 3-4 months, it isn't right for you. For me, but error was the flat chin. The bunched chin fixed my range issues. The Manley Wedge breath has fixed my breathing.
It's time for you to make a change..... _________________ Harrels VPS Summit
Wild Thing
Flip Oakes C
Flip Oakes Flugel
Harrelson 5mm MP |
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