Change Leadpipe on B&S Challenger 1 3137S trumpet?

[Brassman19]

Hi. I have a question I would like to put out to those of you fellow TH members in the know, and who have experience with leadpipe swaps on a Bach 37, and B&S' Challenger 1 clone of it. Does anyone know if a Bach lp will also exactly fit the Challenger?

The reason I ask is, after having the original lp on my 1955 Olds Ambassador horn swapped out to a Bach 43 pipe, and experiencing how much freer, open, evenly, and better it plays and sounds, I am now thinking about swapping out my Challenger's lp to something which will improve on how it plays and performs as well.

Its not that my B&S plays badly, but its resistance as I play into the upper range seems to increase to being more than I prefer, plus I can now tell the difference in much more how easily and responsively my Ambassador blows and plays, than that of my B&S. As it is now, my modified Ambassador plays better, easier, and even sounds better overall than my Challenger does, by comparison.

If the Bach lp will work with it, then I am considering possibly getting either a 25-O, or a 43, or maybe a 7 lp, and have my tech swap it out with the B&S' original one. What are anybody's thoughts about this? Which lp, if any, do you think would do what I am seeking, but still keep my horn to where it will play suitably for a wide variety of styles?

Thanks for your thoughts and feedback.

Larry
_________________
1954 Holton Super Collegiate Trumpet (Yellow brass w/nickel silver bell flare, like the Olds Studio model)
1961 pro Holton Galaxy Trumpet
Bach 1C mp (Trumpet,

[walldaja]

What is the throat of your mouthpiece? Standard is .27 and trying a .25 may give you some relief.
_________________
Dave

Sonare TRC-800, Dennis Wick 1.5C
Blessing Standard, Denis Wick 1.5C
Accent TR959 CDB C tpt Stork XM2 Studio Mstr
Jupiter 846S Flug Schilke 18F
Shires Q30GR T-bone 5 / 4 CL
Yamaha YBL-421G T-bone 2 CL
Jean Baptist Euphonium Stork 4

[mafields627]

If the Melk pipes will fit the B&S, I highly recommend the MTV-525 with a Mt. Vernon receiver. Replacing the stock pipe and receiver on my 37 made a HUGE difference in the blow.
_________________
--Matt--

No representation is made that the quality of this post is greater than the quality of that of any other poster. Oh, and get a teacher!

[ProAm]

The Sonare was, at first, a B&S built horn with a Blackburn leadpipe.

Blackburn/Pickett may be able to suggest one of their leadpipes.

[Brassman19]

Thanks everyone for your responses, and suggestions. I appreciate them,
very much.

Your idea, walldaja, especially intrigues me, as I hadn't thought of my Bach 1C mp's throat diameter being responsible (it is the 27 throat), or possibly at least partly responsible for the increased resistance I feel when playing at the top of, and above the staff. I looked on Bach's website earlier today, and noted that they do indeed make a 1C with a 25 throat, as you said. I may try getting one, and give it a try with my B&S. Who knows, it might even help to open up my modified Ambassador even more than it already is, which would be good, I think. I very much like a more open, free-blowing feel when I play, due probably to the fact I have been a singer for over thirty years, so my lung and breath support capacity are large, and well-developed.

Another attractive thing about buying a larger throat mp is doing that will almost certainly be much less expensive than getting a new lp, then also having to pay my repair tech to swap it out to my B&S horn.

Thanks again,

Larry
_________________
1954 Holton Super Collegiate Trumpet (Yellow brass w/nickel silver bell flare, like the Olds Studio model)
1961 pro Holton Galaxy Trumpet
Bach 1C mp (Trumpet,

[Uberopa]

Maybe a good chemical or ultrasound cleaning might be due along with a valve alignment. Cheaper than a new leadpipe. Even with a new pipe a still dirty horn will be resistant. My $.02.

[Irving]

B&S and Bach parts are not interchangeable. A Bach leapipe can probably be modified to fit a B&S but it won' t fit in directly .

[rcox6918]

Minor modifications will be required. I own a B&S Challenger 3137-1 myself. The only 'swapping myth' I heard was between a Holton Symphony and a Bach Strad because it had been perfectly reverse-engineered. Anyway, I digress...
_________________
Sure, I've got a few horns...

[Steve Hollahan]

In my experience, Bach throats are 28.
_________________
Steve Hollahan
Bach 37, 229 C
Yamaha 9620 D-Eb, 741 C, Flugel
Kanstul 900 piccolo trumpet
Sculptured Recrafting Custom Instrument Repair
and Restoration
www.sculpturedrecrafting.com

[JJMDestino]

In my experience, stock Bach Mouthpieces are a 27 throat. That being said, I have found that if the gap is off, it can make the upper register really stuffy. I think it’s worth checking out.

[James Becker]

[andrew.baxter@mac.com]

No idea if this will work, I’m merely thinking out loud, but one of the things B&S changed from the Challenger I to the Challenger II was the lead pipe (clearly they weren’t that happy with it either). Might a Challenger II lead pipe be bought to fit to your I and make a difference? I’ve owned 3 Challenger I trumpets in the past and found them all a little too stuffy but as you can see, I am more than a fan of the Challenger II. My 3138/2 can crack plaster with its top G from 30 meters away! No stuffiness there!

Like I say, no evidence that this will work, just food for thought.

Andrew
_________________
There are no chords that can't be improved by adding a double high C!

B&S 3138/2 Bb
B&S 3137/2 Bb
B&S 3143/2 Bb
B&S 3137 Bb
B&S EXB eXquisite
B&S 3136/2 C
B&S 3116/2 Eb
B&S 3117JH Eb
B&S 3131/2 Bb/A Piccolo
B&S 3141/2 Cornet
B&S 3145 Flugel

[Irving]

This is from an e mail from a certain Ms. Stark from B&S:

On Wednesday, April 11, 2018, 2:27 AM, Petra Stark <petra.stark@buffetcrampon.com> wrote:

Dear Mr. XXXX,

it’s a simple Challenger I trumpet.

The lead pipe for Challenger I and II is identical. How did you get the

lead pipe delivered ?

So either they changed the leadpipe from 2018, or they are the same, according to B&S.

One change that was made is that the Challenger 1 leadpipe is now make out of gold brass. When I ordered a leadpipe, they only sent me the middle piece, which was still make out of yellow brass. As far as the dimensions go, I wouldn't know if they are still the same now or not. What I can say is that my B&S Challenger 1 is a bit stuffy. Changing the leadpipe would be costly as the repairman would need to put the leadpipe together (B&S sells each piece separately) and then mount it. Plus, they still might be the same. Better off going with a Bach leadpipe, which you know will be bigger if you select the 43.

[andrew.baxter@mac.com]

Hi,

That is compelling and you might be right about the dates which makes my ramblings invalid, but from B&S’s own website:

“With a slightly different lead pipe taper and bell design, the Challenger II has less resistance“

I also believe (again, where this comes from is anyone’s guess!) that the Challenger I pipe was Gold Brass and the II is Yellow Brass, which will affect resonance.

Andrew
_________________
There are no chords that can't be improved by adding a double high C!

B&S 3138/2 Bb
B&S 3137/2 Bb
B&S 3143/2 Bb
B&S 3137 Bb
B&S EXB eXquisite
B&S 3136/2 C
B&S 3116/2 Eb
B&S 3117JH Eb
B&S 3131/2 Bb/A Piccolo
B&S 3141/2 Cornet
B&S 3145 Flugel

[Irving]

Andrew I remember reading that the Challenger 2 leadpipe was more open as well. That is what made me investigate it, and write to B&S. Who knows, you can try writing and see what kind of answer you get. I have since moved on, and no longer play my B&S.