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mouthpiece recommendations needed...


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lipshurt
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PostPosted: Thu May 28, 2020 4:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Andy that is the textbook setup for an 80a.

The only thing is, all 80’s were made with the no gap situation. Yours was not mushed down. If you see an 80 with a ledge it’s not made right. The diameters of the receiver and leadpipe should be exactly the same, and seamless. Then after her down is where there is a constriction or acitual Venturi. There are a lot of them out there that have a bit of a ledge and many of those are because the pipe is not concentric with the receiver piece, or just a mismatch of diameters
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delano
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PostPosted: Fri May 29, 2020 12:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

lipshurt wrote:
some people believe what they read, others believe what they have heard, other people believe what they measure.

Im not saying there are no conn short shank pieces with .060 per inch taper.
I'm simply saying that the ones I've measured have been .050 per inch. That is 8 out of 8 short shank pieces being .050.

I have also measured two long shank conn 4 and those were both. .045 per inch, and they both worked ok and would seat in the receivers of all the cornets and receiver parts i tried them in.

all of those short shank conns were from about 1938. For a while i was on a mission to get conns. 8a slender, (two of them) 36a concert grand (two of them) 80a (three of them) and something else...maybe a director, and those all came with conn 4 shorts. I had a couple directors that also came with conn 4 long shanks.

I've also worked on other peoples conn's and made shanks for various instrument, dozens and dozens, and .050 fits in everything except the early OLDS.

Just because the taper fits, does not mean its going to work well of course.
The shank end diameter is important. COrnet pieces can be .338 on the small side, to .345 on the big side. That is a lot of variation. I make cornet shanks .342 and that seems to be a good working insertion depth solution.

As for the idea that there are receivers out there that have been "reamed" into not wobbling with a .050 shank...thats bogus. Those conn receivers are made of tubing, not machined from stock. That means they are work hardened, and springy, and they are wrapped by another piece of tubing. Have you ever tried to get one that is slightly oval shaped to be round again? really hard to do because it springs back. even if you ream it with a tapered reamer it springs back and it's really hard to get right. By the way, it happens a LOT that the receiver gets out of round, and every example of wobble ive seen, which isn't many was due to an out-of-round receiver.

i just bought a couple more on ebay to measure. will update when they come in


The problem is, you are right or Jim New, Mark Curry and Christine Derksen are right, both is impossible.
So I did the test today. I took my 1942 80A and my Eterna 800 out, also my vintage Bach long shank and my Curry BBC CSS.
Tried my long shank Bach in the Eterna: perfect.
Tried the long shank in the 80A: wobbles slightly. I am quite sure that though you called it bogus that when I give the Bach a ferm knock it will fit the 80A receiver, hard material of the receiver yes or no (I didn't try).
Tried the Curry BBC CSS in the Eterna: wobbles quite a lot;
tried the Curry BBC in the 80A: fits perfectly.
So we have despite your measurements a problem in the real world.

Second: I took the calipers for measurement, put a line on the insert spot of the Bach in the Eterna and one on the insert spot of the Curry in the 80A because that seems to be the right fit for both (both were 9.75 at the insert spot).
Then I put a second spot on a half inch down (whole inch was not possible because the Curry has not enough length). On that spot I measured the Bach (several times clockwise because of possible out of round of this vintage mp) and found measurements between 9.15 and 9.20 mm.
I left the calipers where it was and tried now the Curry (new mp,perfectly round) and I had a certain space in the calipers, clearly visible and perceptible. After measurement the Curry was 9.05 mm at that spot (also a half inch from insert spot). I repeated this with my Jim New made Conn 4 copy shank (should be a perfect copy) with the same measurements (9.05 mm).
Maybe you don't accept my measurement method, it maybe a little rough but the results are convincing though they may not be accurate in the thousands of a mm.
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JayKosta
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PostPosted: Fri May 29, 2020 5:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

delano wrote:
...
So I did the test today. I took my 1942 80A and my Eterna 800 out, also my vintage Bach long shank and my Curry BBC CSS.
... I took the calipers for measurement, put a line on the insert spot of the Bach in the Eterna and one on the insert spot of the Curry in the 80A because that seems to be the right fit for both (both were 9.75 at the insert spot).
Then I put a second spot on a half inch down (whole inch was not possible because the Curry has not enough length). On that spot I measured the Bach ... 9.15 and 9.20 mm.
I left the calipers where it was and tried now the Curry (new mp,perfectly round) and I had a certain space in the calipers, clearly visible and perceptible. After measurement the Curry was 9.05 mm at that spot (also a half inch from insert spot). I repeated this with my Jim New made Conn 4 copy shank (should be a perfect copy) with the same measurements (9.05 mm). ...

--------------------------------------------
If I'm doing the calculations correctly (using your numbers), the shank taper on those mouthpieces are -
Bach - ~ 0.045 inch taper per inch of shank length
Curry and New - ~ 0.055 inch taper per inch of shank length

Jay
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delano
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PostPosted: Fri May 29, 2020 6:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mr. JayKosta, it's very difficult to be THAT precise with a calipers and my old eyes. When I checked things again I found that the Curry CSS mp was slightly thicker at the insert point, a little less than 0.1 mm. For me the point to prove was mainly that the mp's had indeed different taper and that the CSS tapered mouthpiece fiitted the 80A right which the modern Bach did not.
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lipshurt
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PostPosted: Fri May 29, 2020 8:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Why is it impossible that I have had 6 or 8 conn shorts that were .050 per inch?

I’m not saying somebody else doesn’t have 6 or 8 that are different.
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delano
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PostPosted: Fri May 29, 2020 9:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This goes around in unhealthy circles. Everything is possible. OK? If you read my posts carefully you will see that I am about on the same line as Dale Proctor. If the OP wants a useful answer on his questions read that post again and you will know enough. And we can skip the theory.
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lipshurt
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PostPosted: Fri May 29, 2020 12:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The exact answer to the original posters question is:

What is the best way to get a 3c to work with the 80a?

Answer:
3c cup
Slightly smaller backbore than usual.
Shank diameter on small end no more than .342.
Total mouthpiece length of 2.860 which is longer than the typical “long shank”.
At least half of the extra Length needs to be in the throat portion. This will get the upper register and lower register lined up. The rest of the extra length in the backbore section.

Best way to do it is to use a two piece system and a custom backbore with extra length.
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cheiden
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PostPosted: Fri May 29, 2020 12:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There has been a few posts including mine suggesting that the 80a often plays better with a stock Conn piece. If you haven't tried one it's worth a shot. I've seen lots on eBay for little $. Be mindful of the shank,...or not. (see pictures here https://cderksen.home.xs4all.nl/ConnArticle34.html). I'm a Bach 3C player and find the Conn 4 manageable, though not ideal for my chops.

If that doesn't work then there might be something not quite right with the horn.

If that does work but you don't like the rim you could try asking a shop to cut and thread the piece for a rim you like better. I've used Reeves but I'm sure other can accommodate.

I suspect that the suggestion by lipshurt would do right by you as well. Curry seems to work for a number of 80a players too.
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Last edited by cheiden on Fri May 29, 2020 3:29 pm; edited 1 time in total
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JeffM729
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PostPosted: Fri May 29, 2020 1:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just as a point of information, my King Silver Sonic cornet had the same mouthpiece wobble as my 80A. Mark Curry informed me that his Conn taper cornet shank would also fit the King and it did.

You might look at vintage King short shanks as an alternative to the Conn. The King MC is readily available on eBay.
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khedger
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2020 5:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wanted to post a follow up to this thread for anybody who may be interested down the road. Again, I want to make it clear that I know very little about the engineering of mouthpieces. I find all of the measurements and comparisons between brands to be a bit over whelming....so......
I reached out to Trent and Josh at Austin Custom Brass and as usual they fixed me up with a new mouthpiece for my 80A. I had a couple of months lay off and frankly was pretty despondent about playing until I could at least try a different piece with it. I've started practicing with the new piece and things are rusty however I've noticed an IMMEDIATE improvement (even being out of shape) with the aspects of the horn that were giving me trouble. The horn actually feels good to me now (it'll feel better with a few hundred hours of practice!). I've never been one to switch around mouthpieces, I've always just played 3Cs on whatever horn I was playing, but this has been a definite improvement. I asked Josh to give me a simple description of the piece I got so that anyone interested would know what changed. He's quoted below -

"The 3DS has a slightly smaller rim than a typical Bach 3C (.650" v the .653-.655" of the Bach). The Bach 3C has a sharper inner bite than outer bite (the rim profile looks a bit like half dome). The 3DS has the same inner bite as the outer bite. In other words, the 3DS has a symmetrical rim profile. The 3DS has a shallower bowl cup than the Bach 3C and is less V shaped at the bottom than the Bach 3C. "
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