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Liberty Lips
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Joined: 12 Dec 2003
Posts: 979
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 Posted: Thu Jun 04, 2020 2:46 pm Post subject: |
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| adagiotrumpet wrote: | | DISCLAIMER: I have not now, nor have I ever owned a Holton trumpet. |
I can't imagine a statement that is less germane to the topic than this one.
Who appointed you the on-topic custodian? |
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kehaulani
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Joined: 23 Mar 2003
Posts: 9005
Location: Hawai`i - Texas
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| Posted: Thu Jun 04, 2020 2:48 pm Post subject: |
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| OldSchoolEuph wrote: | | I think people took a less jaded view of the word intermediate. |
Actually, just speaking from the viewpoint of a kid who was in school at the time, I was only aware of two categories of horn, school band instruments and better ones.
By today's standards, I suppose the first category would be "beginners" horns and "intermediate" horns and the latter, "professional" horns. But, really, at least my schoolmates tended to just have two categories.
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adagiotrumpet
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Joined: 31 May 2006
Posts: 903
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| Posted: Thu Jun 04, 2020 2:48 pm Post subject: |
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| OldSchoolEuph wrote: | Otherwise it is.
"Inferring that Maynard sold out" No one did, nor believes that he did
"Claiming Holton passed off an intermediate ... as a pro level" - that was not said. Holton was completely upfront designating these horns as 30X. If they Passed it off" in any way, it was passing off a better horn as only upper intermediate by their numbering. But at that time, I think people took a less jaded view of the word intermediate.
"Denigrate other Holton artist models" - facts as to the numbers the company assigned, and facts as to who did, and did not, perform on a particular one, are not denigrating. They are history.
You do make one valid point. I am not sure we ever answered how it plays (yes, my fault as far as the focus on how it WAS played). So, let me take a crack at a concise answer:
- classic seventies trumpet sound, if you have the chops to handle it (not so much core, but very trumpety. Some might say brassy, but clear or clean are also words used for the same idea)
- high resistance, excellent for those looking for major push-back as they go up.
- Tremendous projection
- 302 is A bit on the bright side
- goes over to edge very easily (maybe less so in later production if as Mr. Becker noted the bells got heavier)
- many people find them exhausting. Depends on what the player is comfortable with
- 302 is middle of the road on slotting. Some others are tighter, some others are looser. Leadpipe, slide and bell variations among models control this.
- one of the more responsive MF models.
- if you like a relaxed open blow, this ain't it.
- Playing low can be a bit challenging on these as the resistance makes a relaxed low register problematic.
You will never have consensus on intonation with these as the effect of the resistance varies too much with the player. Some will find it good for the period, some will not - its more them than it in both cases. |
Well, let's just agree to disagree. Your position is that based on the assigned model number, Maynard assisted in the design, played for decades, and endorsed a horn that you describe as "intermediate" and intended for "immature" players. Your words, not mine. My position is that he played on it and endorsed it for decades, and that's good enough for me. James Becker's mention that the Holton Admiral was the intended intermediate horn indicates that the MF Horns were always intended to be considered pro level.
What I can comment on is the fact that after multiple posts, you have finally addressed the OP's original post in a manner that is extensive, specific, and informative. |
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Andy Cooper
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Joined: 15 Nov 2001
Posts: 1825
Location: Terre Haute, IN USA
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| Posted: Thu Jun 04, 2020 2:58 pm Post subject: |
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| I owned both the 302 and the 302 light weight. I liked the 302 - I was looking for a trumpet that would compliment my Conn 80A cornet. If you put a little resistance on the front end (modest throat size and slightly tighter mouthpiece backbore) you could get a Bachish sound and still have reasonable endurance. Other players would try it out and ask what model of Bach it was - really. You just had to fool around with cup, throat, and backbore combinations until you zeroed it in for your playing requirements and limitations. I thought it to be a professional level horn. |
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RussellDDixon
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Joined: 04 Apr 2014
Posts: 832
Location: Mason, OH
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| Posted: Thu Jun 04, 2020 3:01 pm Post subject: |
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WOW ... such Vitriol and the NORM for Trumpet Herald anymore as well as our totally whacked and fractured Society. The verbal darts on this thread are amazing ...
As I am totally self-taught (I had no choice growing up where I did); evidently uneducated and uninformed (compared to some of the experts here) ... I'll pass on commenting on these Professional Model Holton Trumpets any further; although, I owned two of them.
As an immature Amateur player (having played some Pro Gigs however) from those early MF Horn years, I did give my opinion earlier within this thread. However, to each his on ! It's always going to boil down to individual taste and physiology as to what horn and mouthpiece a trumpet player prefers. I'll let the Holton expert educate the OP on the hard cold facts regarding these Holton Professional Model Trumpets.
P.S. ... Please, don't hurt my feelings with any Salty responses. I get my feelings hurt quite easily.
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Dennis78
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Joined: 28 Feb 2015
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Location: Cincinnati
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OldSchoolEuph
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Apr 2012
Posts: 2440
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| Posted: Thu Jun 04, 2020 3:39 pm Post subject: |
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| kehaulani wrote: | | OldSchoolEuph wrote: | | I think people took a less jaded view of the word intermediate. |
Actually, just speaking from the viewpoint of a kid who was in school at the time, I was only aware of two categories of horn, school band instruments and better ones.
By today's standards, I suppose the first category would be "beginners" horns and "intermediate" horns and the latter, "professional" horns. But, really, at least my schoolmates tended to just have two categories. |
Matches my experience back in the day too.
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Ron Berndt
www.trumpet-history.com
2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20 |
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OldSchoolEuph
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Joined: 07 Apr 2012
Posts: 2440
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| Posted: Thu Jun 04, 2020 3:42 pm Post subject: |
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| RussellDDixon wrote: | WOW ... such Vitriol and the NORM for Trumpet Herald anymore as well as our totally whacked and fractured Society. The verbal darts on this thread are amazing ...
As I am totally self-taught (I had no choice growing up where I did); evidently uneducated and uninformed (compared to some of the experts here) ... I'll pass on commenting on these Professional Model Holton Trumpets any further; although, I owned two of them.
As an immature Amateur player (having played some Pro Gigs however) from those early MF Horn years, I did give my opinion earlier within this thread. However, to each his on ! It's always going to boil down to individual taste and physiology as to what horn and mouthpiece a trumpet player prefers. I'll let the Holton expert educate the OP on the hard cold facts regarding these Holton Professional Model Trumpets.
P.S. ... Please, don't hurt my feelings with any Salty responses. I get my feelings hurt quite easily. |
Thank you - its nice to almost agree with someone so level headed in, as you point out, the modern dynamic. You are right: labels aside, if it works for the player, its a great horn.
_________________
Ron Berndt
www.trumpet-history.com
2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20 |
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kehaulani
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Mar 2003
Posts: 9005
Location: Hawai`i - Texas
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OldSchoolEuph
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Apr 2012
Posts: 2440
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| Posted: Thu Jun 04, 2020 3:47 pm Post subject: |
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Hey everyone: just one more for right now I promise
I may disagree with adagiotrumpet vehemently on some contextual issues, but his criticism of my taking way too long to actually answer the OP's question is on target. I just wanted to apologize to the OP for not getting to the point until this afternoon.
In case it is lost in the scroll, here's another copy:
- classic seventies trumpet sound, if you have the chops to handle it (not so much core, but very trumpety. Some might say brassy, but clear or clean are also words used for the same idea)
- high resistance, excellent for those looking for major push-back as they go up.
- Tremendous projection
- 302 is A bit on the bright side
- goes over to edge very easily (maybe less so in later production if as Mr. Becker noted the bells got heavier)
- many people find them exhausting. Depends on what the player is comfortable with
- 302 is middle of the road on slotting. Some others are tighter, some others are looser. Leadpipe, slide and bell variations among models control this.
- one of the more responsive MF models.
- if you like a relaxed open blow, this ain't it.
- Playing low can be a bit challenging on these as the resistance makes a relaxed low register problematic.
You will never have consensus on intonation with these as the effect of the resistance varies too much with the player. Some will find it good for the period, some will not - its more them than it in both cases.
_________________
Ron Berndt
www.trumpet-history.com
2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20 |
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Ozzbo
Veteran Member
Joined: 16 Feb 2011
Posts: 137
Location: New York
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| Posted: Thu Jun 04, 2020 7:45 pm Post subject: |
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During the 80's I briefly owned a nice ST302. It played well, but did not blend well with the usual all Bach Strad sections. I traded it in for a nice Bach LT72 which served it's purpose, but I missed the Holton's unique sound and bite.
When the new ST307 reversed leadpipe MFs came out, I purchased one of the the 1st batch of them and was immediately impressed with it's versatility and sound. Played it professionally for like 10 yrs until I traded it in along with a Yammie pic for a Large Bore Blackburn, which I still own.
If you find an ST307, get it !!! They are rare in the used market, but the best of the MF horns manufactured by Holton.
Ozzy |
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stumac
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 19 Nov 2008
Posts: 697
Location: Flinders, Australia
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| Posted: Thu Jun 04, 2020 11:51 pm Post subject: |
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I have a pristine ST301 and would like to know more about it, I gather they were only in production for a short time, nickle silver bell and tubing similar to the Galaxy, a lightweight horn with no brace on the tuning slide receiver.
The little I have played it would be on a par with any other professional horns of mine. I will take it to Big Band for a good workout when we resume.
Regards, Stuart. |
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khedger
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Mar 2008
Posts: 754
Location: Cambridge, MA
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| Posted: Sat Jun 06, 2020 12:22 am Post subject: |
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I replied earlier about owning an MF horn in the '70s.
I don't want to argue about whether Holton was trying to sell the horn to
an intermediate market or whatever....
I just wanted to say that MY MF Horn was a professional level horn. Great
design, excellent construction, quality materials. And I definitely paid a professional price for it.
keith |
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