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Tip ? is it working ?



 
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jicetp
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Joined: 30 Mar 2004
Posts: 866

PostPosted: Thu Jun 25, 2020 12:28 am    Post subject: Tip ? is it working ? Reply with quote

Hi there !

I am interested in the Callet.TCE approach, even though I dont label what I (try and) do.

The mysterious tongue position has been quite diffcult to grasp, but lately, I have tried this methodology :

- I stick my tongue far out of my mouth.
- I make a ' spit buzz ' sound
- close the lips while trying to let 'as much tongue as possible in front of the mouth '
- I place the mouthpiece
- I blow

Feeling's a bit ' weird ' with som much stuff in front of the mouth

But if I try to not overblow, I get some great sounding pitches from low C to sometimes High G (even higher squeaks ) with no pressure !

What is annoying me is that I have to have this setting routine which cant be applied in a real performance !!

Does anybody tried it that way ? Like it ? Or not ?
Will it become second nature in 10 000 hours.....?

Thanks

JiCe
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trumpetplanet
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Joined: 05 Feb 2012
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Location: Bristol, UK

PostPosted: Sat Jun 27, 2020 5:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi JiCe,

Don't try and over-do the tongue. Your sentence "Let as much tongue as possible in front of the mouth" is not how I would describe the correct forward, bevelled, but relaxed tongue position that we're going after.

If you can play all of the exercises in my Seven bugles book, which I believe you own (at least, you do according to my database ), then you already have the answer to your question above. If you cannot then you know what work needs to be done.

Work through the exercises and you will strengthen the tongue and become familiar with the correct movements. The forward position will be less difficult to maintain and you won't need to perform such an extreme set up each time you play.

Oh, and don't blow - spit!
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kehaulani
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Joined: 23 Mar 2003
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 27, 2020 8:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Have you read the section in Jeff Smiley's Balanced Embouchure (BE) book, on tonguing through the lips exercises and directions? If I'm not mistaking, he got the idea from Jerome Callet. It's pretty clear in BE.
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trumpetplanet
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 27, 2020 8:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It is worth taking a look at and I have suggested the "Tongue On Lips" to people as a stepping stone in the past, but be aware that it is not TCE because neither is the tongue "anchored" or "bevelled".
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peanuts56
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Joined: 02 Jan 2011
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 27, 2020 12:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

trumpetplanet wrote:
It is worth taking a look at and I have suggested the "Tongue On Lips" to people as a stepping stone in the past, but be aware that it is not TCE because neither is the tongue "anchored" or "bevelled".


My recollection in Jeff's book is that he didn't say to anchor or not anchor the tongue. I thought he said something like the tongue will find it's own spot after articulating.
I could be wrong. If Jeff is reading any of this maybe he could chime in.
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trumpetplanet
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 27, 2020 12:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

peanuts56 wrote:

My recollection in Jeff's book is that he didn't say to anchor or not anchor the tongue. I thought he said something like the tongue will find it's own spot after articulating.
I could be wrong. If Jeff is reading any of this maybe he could chime in.


You're right - there is no direct instruction as to what you should consciously do with the tongue after the attack when performing TOL exercises in BE. That supports what I'm saying - that they are different and one is not a means for learning the other.
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kehaulani
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 27, 2020 1:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The OP said, "I stick my tongue far out of my mouth. " My suggestion has to do with that.
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trumpetplanet
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 27, 2020 2:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kehaulani wrote:
The OP said, "I stick my tongue far out of my mouth. " My suggestion has to do with that.


Yes, I can see you're trying to help.

During the era of Jerome's teaching that inspired some ideas in the BE method he taught that you should use the tongue through the teeth.
Jeff's book calls it tongue on lips.
Notice that neither of these are "tongue through the lips".

Just trying to avoid confusion. I know that I'm a pedant.
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5-octave warm-up: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MH4yJVfbE_I
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jicetp
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 28, 2020 11:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for all your remarks.
I'll try and be not so rude and stick my tongue that much
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jicetp
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 29, 2020 9:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

After re-reading the comments , I should point some things out :

- my trying to get the tongue 'as forward ' as possible is my take on ' let the tongue in contact with the lips ' which I find quite difficult to do . After years of back of the tongue arching and articulating at the top of the teeth, I have to educate my tongue to stay forward.

I should have written : this stick-out tongue is to remind me to have the tongue forward , because I dont do it naturally (yet).


I suck at going from the pedals to high notes, but its easier to ' set ' for a high tone and get down.

I guess I have to find my way.

Typical morning session is :

get the double pedals going with the ' right ' tongue position.
some chromatics from double pedal C to F# ( slurred, rongues, G tongued, double tongues, triple tongued )

then I try and play every open harmonics ( C G middle C middle E and so on ) with the tongue position

and afterwards, I try and connect the two like :
play low C down to pedal C
then pedal C to low C

G down to pedal C
pedal C to G

and so on until I feel some tension creeping in (usually high E/F# or G depending on the day )

This way I feel I have :

warmed-up
played all ( not all only open notes ) my range , from any place on the trumpet up and down

this takes around 10minutes , depending on the wife/kids/TV program if I get distracted

some fingers work is to be done and I am good to go !
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JayKosta
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Joined: 24 Dec 2018
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 30, 2020 4:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

jicetp wrote:
... and articulating at the top of the teeth ...

-------------------------------------------------
My feeling is the tip of my tongue articulates at the bottom of my upper front teeth.
I don't understand how you would articulate 'at the top of the teeth' - near the gum line?

Jay
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jicetp
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 30, 2020 9:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I meant I used to ( and still do ) have the tip of my tongue striking the upper part of the teeth for articulation
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