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Chet Baker warming up/practicing/soundcheck recording


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craigtrumpet
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 05, 2020 1:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BeboppinFool wrote:
Craig, your understanding sorta falls in line with what I deduced many years ago when I got the "Smokin'" and "Boppin'" with Chet Baker Quintet albums. They're the ones with George Coleman, in case you're familiar with them.

On the bridge of Have You Met Miss Jones, if memory serves, Chet sorta fell apart every time it came around for him.

But it reminded me of the "Bird With The Herd" bootleg from Sweden where Bird tries blowing over the changes to Four Brothers and similarly fell apart on the bridge to that.

Those both led me to believe that, although these guys were both stellar players, there were situations where the changes took their ears by surprise and by the time they figured out what was going on, it was too late. The "damage" had been done.

Reassures me that they were, indeed, mortal after all. Their "Tommy Flanagan/Giant Steps" moment, if you will.

😉


I had a similar thought while listening to Chet struggle to play the changes on the old Milestones, though to be fair, that’s a hard tune to blow on no matter who you are!


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 06, 2020 10:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can believe that Chet played by ear and didn't ever look at chord charts. Also the points made above are good- he played diatonic tunes, and ones that had weird chords sometimes threw him off like "Have You Met Miss Jones" because that bridge is hard to hear.
To the point about playing with Mulligan with no chords, if anything its easier to audiate the harmony when its not being played. Another point, C major 7 sounds completely different than a C dominant 7. One might hear a C major 7 as an E minor, in which case they might technically be "wrong" but it wouldn't matter. And it's totally possible to play "wrong" notes and still sound like you are playing correct changes because your overall harmonic and melodic sense is taking the listener somewhere and not just wiggling fingers over "memorized" chords" (the way most of us play, and the way that is not fun to listen to)
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 07, 2020 4:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am enjoying this discussion, thanks for the engagement all!

Jaw04 wrote:
I can believe that Chet played by ear and didn't ever look at chord charts. Also the points made above are good- he played diatonic tunes, and ones that had weird chords sometimes threw him off like "Have You Met Miss Jones" because that bridge is hard to hear.


People keep saying that he played diatonically, but I've been transcribing a lot of Chet and this doesn't seem to be the case. He also played all types of tunes with all kinds of changes, not just diatonic tunes. I have recordings of him playing Airegin, Conception, Lady Bird, Well you Needn't, Four, etc. Chet wasn't just some guy who played "in the key of the tune." Chet outlined all of the harmonies including the altered extensions (b9's, #9's, #11's, b13's, etc).

Here is a transcription I did of his solo on Line for Lyons (Mulligan original, no prior recording existed, no chordal instrument present, changes are not totally diatonic and do include altered extensions). I've put all of the non-diatonic notes in blue. Chet was not just playing "in the key" he was outlining the harmony almost to a T but again with no chordal instrument present.




Jaw04 wrote:
To the point about playing with Mulligan with no chords, if anything its easier to audiate the harmony when its not being played.


I'm not sure I can agree with you on this one, especially with non-diatonic tunes. It might sound better to play a diatonic solo with no chords present because the wrong notes won't clash with the piano part, but this would not be an example of audiating the harmony, it would be an example of faking the harmony. From the transcriptions I've done, Chet never faked any harmony.

Jaw04 wrote:
C major 7 sounds completely different than a C dominant 7. One might hear a C major 7 as an E minor, in which case they might technically be "wrong" but it wouldn't matter.


Of course a C Maj7 sounds different than a C7 when the chord is present (piano/guitar), but with ONLY bass (Mulligan's group) the two chords would be harder to discern. The bass player might only walk the first few notes of the scale (say C-D-E-G) making it difficult to hear which 7th the chord should contain. Yet in that group, Chet almost never got the 7th (or whatever chord sonority) wrong.

Jaw04 wrote:
And it's totally possible to play "wrong" notes and still sound like you are playing correct changes because your overall harmonic and melodic sense is taking the listener somewhere and not just wiggling fingers over "memorized" chords" (the way most of us play, and the way that is not fun to listen to)


For lack of a better term, you are describing "faking it" over changes by playing melodically strong. You are totally right that this can be done, BUT this is not how Chet played. Chet did not simply play pretty melodies against the changes (of course he might have sometimes as all the greats did) he outlined the changes, there is a difference.

One could actually transcribe a Chet Baker solo and figure out the changes to the tune just by looking at Chet's lines.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 07, 2020 11:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

craigtrumpet wrote:
I am enjoying this discussion, thanks for the engagement all!

Jaw04 wrote:
I can believe that Chet played by ear and didn't ever look at chord charts. Also the points made above are good- he played diatonic tunes, and ones that had weird chords sometimes threw him off like "Have You Met Miss Jones" because that bridge is hard to hear.


People keep saying that he played diatonically, but I've been transcribing a lot of Chet and this doesn't seem to be the case. He also played all types of tunes with all kinds of changes, not just diatonic tunes. I have recordings of him playing Airegin, Conception, Lady Bird, Well you Needn't, Four, etc. Chet wasn't just some guy who played "in the key of the tune." Chet outlined all of the harmonies including the altered extensions (b9's, #9's, #11's, b13's, etc).

Here is a transcription I did of his solo on Line for Lyons (Mulligan original, no prior recording existed, no chordal instrument present, changes are not totally diatonic and do include altered extensions). I've put all of the non-diatonic notes in blue. Chet was not just playing "in the key" he was outlining the harmony almost to a T but again with no chordal instrument present.




Jaw04 wrote:
To the point about playing with Mulligan with no chords, if anything its easier to audiate the harmony when its not being played.


I'm not sure I can agree with you on this one, especially with non-diatonic tunes. It might sound better to play a diatonic solo with no chords present because the wrong notes won't clash with the piano part, but this would not be an example of audiating the harmony, it would be an example of faking the harmony. From the transcriptions I've done, Chet never faked any harmony.

Jaw04 wrote:
C major 7 sounds completely different than a C dominant 7. One might hear a C major 7 as an E minor, in which case they might technically be "wrong" but it wouldn't matter.


Of course a C Maj7 sounds different than a C7 when the chord is present (piano/guitar), but with ONLY bass (Mulligan's group) the two chords would be harder to discern. The bass player might only walk the first few notes of the scale (say C-D-E-G) making it difficult to hear which 7th the chord should contain. Yet in that group, Chet almost never got the 7th (or whatever chord sonority) wrong.

Jaw04 wrote:
And it's totally possible to play "wrong" notes and still sound like you are playing correct changes because your overall harmonic and melodic sense is taking the listener somewhere and not just wiggling fingers over "memorized" chords" (the way most of us play, and the way that is not fun to listen to)


For lack of a better term, you are describing "faking it" over changes by playing melodically strong. You are totally right that this can be done, BUT this is not how Chet played. Chet did not simply play pretty melodies against the changes (of course he might have sometimes as all the greats did) he outlined the changes, there is a difference.

One could actually transcribe a Chet Baker solo and figure out the changes to the tune just by looking at Chet's lines.
I am describing people that know the chords and know the scales and know the arpeggios and sound bad as faking it. Less skilled players improvise by knowing and memorizing patterns and lines. Hearing and connecting it to the instrument is different than knowing. Chet was the opposite of faking it.
About hearing chords in real time vs in your head: There is harmony associated with melody. If you hear Happy Birthday, you don't need to know the chords or hear the chords being played to have a strong sense of where the song goes harmonically, and you can deduce what they are after only 1 or 2 listenings. And you would not mistake the dominant chord for any other flavor of chord. Even without having heard the chords. Magic!
Functional harmony is a deeper thing than learning about chord names and notes. The extensions of the chord and the alterations over dominant chords are there floating around in the air whether you have learned about them or not. Learning music theory should reinforce what you already hear (in an ideal world). All you really need is the melody to derive harmony from it. And you develop taste and make choices based on your influences.
And yes he outlined harmony very well and accurately most of the time. I believe he did it by ear all the way. I didn't say he just played in the right key. I have transcribed a lot of Chet also, more than any other player. All my favorite players played by ear, not by going to jazz school. Roy Hargrove, Chet Baker, Miles Davis. That doesn't mean they didn't know how to play changes.
He also played "wrong" notes from time to time, and I'm not diminishing any of his awesomeness or saying that it is bad to play "wrong" notes. I only say that because it seems like you are saying he was almost some kind of computer spitting out flawless lines with 100% accuracy. We all agree Chet is the man!
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craigtrumpet
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 07, 2020 11:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jaw04 wrote:
I am describing people that know the chords and know the scales and know the arpeggios and sound bad as faking it. Less skilled players improvise by knowing and memorizing patterns and lines. Hearing and connecting it to the instrument is different than knowing. Chet was the opposite of faking it.
About hearing chords in real time vs in your head: There is harmony associated with melody. If you hear Happy Birthday, you don't need to know the chords or hear the chords being played to have a strong sense of where the song goes harmonically, and you can deduce what they are after only 1 or 2 listenings. And you would not mistake the dominant chord for any other flavor of chord. Functional harmony is a deeper thing than learning about chord names and notes. All you need is the melody to derive harmony from it. And yes he outlined harmony very well. I believe he did it by ear. I didn't say he just played in the right key. I have transcribed a dozen Chet Baker solos, more than any other player. All my favorite players played by ear, not by going to jazz school. Roy Hargrove, Chet Baker, Miles Davis. That doesn't mean they didn't know how to play changes.
He also played "wrong" notes from time to time, and I'm not diminishing any of his awesomeness or saying that it is bad to play "wrong" notes. I only say that because it seems like you are saying he was almost some kind of computer spitting out flawless lines with 100% accuracy. We all agree Chet is the man!


I'm not talking about other players or debating which school of learning jazz is best, I'm only talking about Chet. I am also definitely not saying that Chet was a computer by any means. I've written this at least twice in this thread, but I'll state it again:

"I don't think Chet was a theory whiz by any means and I do think he was predominantly an ear player. But I do think he had a rudimentary understanding of key centers. There are a lot of signs that indicate Chet probably knew more than what the folklore and mystique surrounding him would lead us to believe."

Pretty far from implying that Chet was a "computer spitting out flawless lines with 100% accuracy."

Also Roy Hargrove went to Berkley and Miles Davis went to Julliard. All of the great jazz musicians played by ear, that's the goal of all practice and study in the jazz idiom. But Roy and Miles still knew what a D-7 was, and I'm am trying to present a case that Chet probably did too. Knowing what a D-7 is does not mean you're a robot who plays every solo like it's a math equation. You can know what a D-7 is and still play by ear. But for some reason when talking about Chet, everyone draws the line right there, like, there is no way Chet knew what a D-7 was. Chet studied theory and harmony in college and spent his whole life hanging out with the greatest jazz minds to walk the planet. But if you suggest that along the way Chet probably learned what a D-7 was people react as if it's blasphemous.

I certainly do agree with you that Chet was the man!
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 07, 2020 1:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

craigtrumpet wrote:
Jaw04 wrote:
I am describing people that know the chords and know the scales and know the arpeggios and sound bad as faking it. Less skilled players improvise by knowing and memorizing patterns and lines. Hearing and connecting it to the instrument is different than knowing. Chet was the opposite of faking it.
About hearing chords in real time vs in your head: There is harmony associated with melody. If you hear Happy Birthday, you don't need to know the chords or hear the chords being played to have a strong sense of where the song goes harmonically, and you can deduce what they are after only 1 or 2 listenings. And you would not mistake the dominant chord for any other flavor of chord. Functional harmony is a deeper thing than learning about chord names and notes. All you need is the melody to derive harmony from it. And yes he outlined harmony very well. I believe he did it by ear. I didn't say he just played in the right key. I have transcribed a dozen Chet Baker solos, more than any other player. All my favorite players played by ear, not by going to jazz school. Roy Hargrove, Chet Baker, Miles Davis. That doesn't mean they didn't know how to play changes.
He also played "wrong" notes from time to time, and I'm not diminishing any of his awesomeness or saying that it is bad to play "wrong" notes. I only say that because it seems like you are saying he was almost some kind of computer spitting out flawless lines with 100% accuracy. We all agree Chet is the man!


I'm not talking about other players or debating which school of learning jazz is best, I'm only talking about Chet. I am also definitely not saying that Chet was a computer by any means. I've written this at least twice in this thread, but I'll state it again:

"I don't think Chet was a theory whiz by any means and I do think he was predominantly an ear player. But I do think he had a rudimentary understanding of key centers. There are a lot of signs that indicate Chet probably knew more than what the folklore and mystique surrounding him would lead us to believe."

Pretty far from implying that Chet was a "computer spitting out flawless lines with 100% accuracy."

Also Roy Hargrove went to Berkley and Miles Davis went to Julliard. All of the great jazz musicians played by ear, that's the goal of all practice and study in the jazz idiom. But Roy and Miles still knew what a D-7 was, and I'm am trying to present a case that Chet probably did too. Knowing what a D-7 is does not mean you're a robot who plays every solo like it's a math equation. You can know what a D-7 is and still play by ear. But for some reason when talking about Chet, everyone draws the line right there, like, there is no way Chet knew what a D-7 was. Chet studied theory and harmony in college and spent his whole life hanging out with the greatest jazz minds to walk the planet. But if you suggest that along the way Chet probably learned what a D-7 was people react as if it's blasphemous.

I certainly do agree with you that Chet was the man!
I don't know what the folklore or mystique you're refering to leads people to believe. I don't know anyone that thinks Chet Baker was "faking it." I also don't know anyone that would say Chet didn't know what a D-7 was. I don't know how much music he could read and I don't think it would matter either way. Think of guitarists, many don't read music but they know the sounds and they know major and minor and diminished etc... maybe they can read charts or not, but they learn songs by ear. Gospel musicians learn songs by ear. Basically most musicians outside of classical music learn songs by ear. It seems like we agree Chet learned songs by ear. I am not debating whether or not he knew what a D-7 was.
You said you're not talking about other players but then you talk about Roy and Miles going to school. Roy sounded fully-formed before he went to Berkeley and neither of them graduated. They both knew what a minor 7 chord is. But they both probably could hear it and understand the intervals involved beforehand, whether or not they knew what it was called.


Last edited by Jaw04 on Tue Jul 07, 2020 9:39 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 07, 2020 4:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chet knew everything. He had ears and he knew what he was hearing, and he knew what everybody was playing. People,with good ears are like that. He also could read, but why read when you can just hear it? He was wasn’t faking anything. There is an out-take of something that is pretty famous, where the Italian guitar player...(can’t place the name dammit) plays a chord Chet doesn’t like, and he he stops and tells him the name of the right chord, and there is a tiny bit of tension and Chet says it’s better if he gets his way more or less. Chet also could play piano pretty well. I have a friend who saw Chet on San Francisco and Chet said that he couldn’t play trumpet that day, so he let the piano player go. My friend was bummed out, but he said it was pretty magical having Chet play piano and sing the whole gig.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 08, 2020 4:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jaw04 wrote:
I don't know what the folklore or mystique you're refering to leads people to believe. I don't know anyone that thinks Chet Baker was "faking it." I also don't know anyone that would say Chet didn't know what a D-7 was. I don't know how much music he could read and I don't think it would matter either way. Think of guitarists, many don't read music but they know the sounds and they know major and minor and diminished etc... maybe they can read charts or not, but they learn songs by ear. Gospel musicians learn songs by ear. Basically most musicians outside of classical music learn songs by ear. It seems like we agree Chet learned songs by ear. I am not debating whether or not he knew what a D-7 was.


The folklore around Chet is basically that he was a kind of idiot-savant who rarely or never practiced, he didn't know one chord from the next, didn't even know what key he was playing in, but he was blessed with a set of golden ears that allowed him to navigate and outline any set of chord changes with pure instinct/intuition alone and zero understanding of harmony.

And again, I could be totally wrong, maybe the above description is 100% accurate as it applies to Chet, but I find it hard to buy. I think the learning process for anything is a bit more gradual and linear and when someone reaches a high level of skill in any area, it's because they worked hard at it and developed a strong understanding of the area in which they became an expert. I do acknowledge that people have differing levels of natural ability or talent and that this is always a factor, but I don't believe that talent exempts someone from having to put in work and study into the somewhat technical aspects of their chosen craft.

I have been obsessed with Chet during this quarantine, listening to him (to the exclusion of everyone else) for hours on end each day, transcribing his solos, watching all the videos/documentaries over and over, reading his biographies and memoirs, reading album liner notes, studying photos, etc. All of this is what got me thinking that the folklore I'd always heard and believed about Chet might not be the whole story.

And this is what lead me to this conversation where I tried to make a case, via some evidence I've come across (Chet playing chords and soloing on piano, recordings of him practicing diminished scales/arpeggios in all keys, his study of theory/harmony in college, his own writings in his memoirs about the key centers of tunes, his outlining of chords in a chord-less group, etc.), that Chet probably knew more about the technical aspects of jazz than the folklore above suggests.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 08, 2020 9:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

craigtrumpet wrote:

The folklore around Chet is basically that he was a kind of idiot-savant who rarely or never practiced, he didn't know one chord from the next, didn't even know what key he was playing in, but he was blessed with a set of golden ears that allowed him to navigate and outline any set of chord changes with pure instinct/intuition alone and zero understanding of harmony.

And again, I could be totally wrong, maybe the above description is 100% accurate as it applies to Chet, but I find it hard to buy. I think the learning process for anything is a bit more gradual and linear and when someone reaches a high level of skill in any area, it's because they worked hard at it and developed a strong understanding of the area in which they became an expert. I do acknowledge that people have differing levels of natural ability or talent and that this is always a factor, but I don't believe that talent exempts someone from having to put in work and study into the somewhat technical aspects of their chosen craft.

I have been obsessed with Chet during this quarantine, listening to him (to the exclusion of everyone else) for hours on end each day, transcribing his solos, watching all the videos/documentaries over and over, reading his biographies and memoirs, reading album liner notes, studying photos, etc. All of this is what got me thinking that the folklore I'd always heard and believed about Chet might not be the whole story.

And this is what lead me to this conversation where I tried to make a case, via some evidence I've come across (Chet playing chords and soloing on piano, recordings of him practicing diminished scales/arpeggios in all keys, his study of theory/harmony in college, his own writings in his memoirs about the key centers of tunes, his outlining of chords in a chord-less group, etc.), that Chet probably knew more about the technical aspects of jazz than the folklore above suggests.

Yep
, I have had many similar thoughts. Thinking about what made the greats great and how they learned how to play, how they practiced, what they thought about while they played. I've been on a Chet trip also.
I think that I conceptualize what's happening when Chet plays a little bit differently than you. For example, Chet sounded badass even when he was young. Same with Roy Hargrove and a lot of the all-time greats. We all know about child prodigies such as Joey Alexander. I think Chet probably would fall into that category. I hypothesize he was able to make music intuitively the way children learn to speak. They haven't been taught explicitly sentence structure but they can use sentences. As they get older and go to school, they understand how sentences are formed and get better at using them, but they could speak just fine anyways.
I taught myself guitar when I was a kid, and I'm no prodigy. But I figured out some things about harmony without knowing names. I understood what tonic and dominant was without being taught what it was called. I explored the instrument from a child-like perspective and learned actually quite a lot about harmony and could learn songs by ear. I understood major and minor as well and could make up chords that "made sense." Most musicians have different levels of innate talent and Chet's was very high.
How much did he practice and how much did he know? I'm not sure. But I doubt it was as much as I practice and I know! I have a masters degree and studied jazz theory and practice all the time. Chet plays way way better than me. Talent is a real thing. And "knowing" names of chords is not a prerequisite for using them and playing music. Whether or not Chet knew all the names of the chords, I don't think he had to. The only difference between us is you are saying he "must" have known more, but I think he "knew" it in a different way, you know what I mean?
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 08, 2020 10:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jaw04 wrote:
Yep, I have had many similar thoughts. Thinking about what made the greats great and how they learned how to play, how they practiced, what they thought about while they played. I've been on a Chet trip also.
I think that I conceptualize what's happening when Chet plays a little bit differently than you. For example, Chet sounded badass even when he was young. Same with Roy Hargrove and a lot of the all-time greats. We all know about child prodigies such as Joey Alexander. I think Chet probably would fall into that category. I hypothesize he was able to make music intuitively the way children learn to speak. They haven't been taught explicitly sentence structure but they can use sentences. As they get older and go to school, they understand how sentences are formed and get better at using them, but they could speak just fine anyways.
I taught myself guitar when I was a kid, and I'm no prodigy. But I figured out some things about harmony without knowing names. I understood what tonic and dominant was without being taught what it was called. I explored the instrument from a child-like perspective and learned actually quite a lot about harmony and could learn songs by ear. I understood major and minor as well and could make up chords that "made sense." Most musicians have different levels of innate talent and Chet's was very high.
How much did he practice and how much did he know? I'm not sure. But I doubt it was as much as I practice and I know! I have a masters degree and studied jazz theory and practice all the time. Chet plays way way better than me. Talent is a real thing. And "knowing" names of chords is not a prerequisite for using them and playing music. Whether or not Chet knew all the names of the chords, I don't think he had to. The only difference between us is you are saying he "must" have known more, but I think he "knew" it in a different way, you know what I mean?


I can totally dig that.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 08, 2020 11:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Another photo of Chet playing piano.

http://www.eastwestmusic.net/photos_8.htm
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 08, 2020 12:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Trumpetown wrote:
Another photo of Chet playing piano.

http://www.eastwestmusic.net/photos_8.htm


Nice, I'd never seen those photos, thanks for the heads up!

Here is the famous one of young Chet playing piano:


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 12, 2020 8:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 12, 2020 9:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 12, 2020 9:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That movie is deceptive and based as much on an impressionistic ambiance of Baker, as reality. Not to mention created things that pan for the camera.
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 12, 2020 6:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kehaulani wrote:
That movie is deceptive and based as much on an impressionistic ambiance of Baker, as reality. Not to mention created things that pan for the camera.


I cannot disagree with you but I think to hear Russ Freeman and Jack Sheldon talk about Chet's ear, there truth to his ability to hear and play great jazz. Even Chet's mother said he could pick out tunes an early age and play by ear.
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 12, 2020 8:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, I just point out for readers that it's more impressionist, but that doesn't mean it doesn't have valuable things in it. In act, I enjoyed much of it.
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craigtrumpet
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 13, 2020 4:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jon Arnold wrote:

Link


Yup, I’ve watched those interviews many times. It’s actually one of the reasons I started wondering about the folklore vs. reality because there are several interviews where people (including Russ) say that Chet didn’t know what key any tunes were in and he would ask what note the melody started on. But in Chet’s memoirs (from Chet’s own pen) he talks about playing a tune with Bird that was in the key of G. So that to me showed that Chet did know the keys of tunes. I wonder if Russ was asked about Chet so often and had to tell the stories so many times that after many years some of the details became slightly skewed? I certainly don’t think Russ was lying, but Chet either knew keys or he didn’t, and his memoirs lead me to believe he did know key centers. So what else might he have also known (musically) that may have morphed through being romanticized via word of mouth over the years? This is why I started trying to go to the source, Chet himself, and look for the answers, rather than from second hand sources, though I believe those are incredibly valuable as well.

I can imagine (though this is totally speculation) that, prior to hearing the recording, if I'd mentioned Chet knowing diminished scales, people rolling their eyes and saying something like "Chet didn't know a diminished scale from a demolished scale." Yet, there it is in the recording, Chet running diminished scales and their arpeggios in all keys when he probably didn't even know he was being recorded.
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beagle
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 13, 2020 5:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It is fairly safe to say that as a young player Chet probably didn't have a strong grasp of music theory. Hardly any of the jazz players did back then. Dizzy Gillespie also writes of not realizing that songs could be played in different keys when he was young, and even Bird himself famously had an embarrassing experience which resulted in him going to the shed and learning everything in all keys.

However I am quite sure that, like his idols, he picked up what he needed to know very quickly once he became a serious player. Also, saying that he didn't know what key a tune was played in is quite different from saying that he didn't understand the concept of a key. If you play a lot of tunes it's easy to forget which key you usually play a particular tune in. But if your ear is good you can quickly work out a song you have played before on the fly without much difficulty. These days most people - even those with Music degrees - don't know what key a tune is in and can only play with a real book in front of them.

By some accounts Chet himself was an unreliable source, so always taking his word for something may not be the best strategy. I don't think it really matters how much he knew. I don't feel the need to imagine him as a theory expert any more than I need to see him as a purely intuitive player (a more romantic image that he may even have encouraged in the early days). His music speaks for itself.
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craigtrumpet
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 13, 2020 5:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

beagle wrote:
It is fairly safe to say that as a young player Chet probably didn't have a strong grasp of music theory. Hardly any of the jazz players did back then. Dizzy Gillespie also writes of not realizing that songs could be played in different keys when he was young, and even Bird himself famously had an embarrassing experience which resulted in him going to the shed and learning everything in all keys.

However I am quite sure that, like his idols, he picked up what he needed to know very quickly once he became a serious player. Also, saying that he didn't know what key a tune was played in is quite different from saying that he didn't understand the concept of a key. If you play a lot of tunes it's easy to forget which key you usually play a particular tune in. But if your ear is good you can quickly work out a song you have played before on the fly without much difficulty. These days most people - even those with Music degrees - don't know what key a tune is in and can only play with a real book in front of them.

By some accounts Chet himself was an unreliable source, so always taking his word for something may not be the best strategy. I don't think it really matters how much he knew. I don't feel the need to imagine him as a theory expert any more than I need to see him as a purely intuitive player (a more romantic image that he may even have encouraged in the early days). His music speaks for itself.


I can definitely dig this!
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