Bundy Cornet note increments are not correct

[Davidebeck]

I have an unusual problem with a used Bundy cornet I recently acquired from the daughter of a man now in a nursing home. I haven't played in a very long time so could not try it out. It is in very good condition and may be a 1960s vintage horn. Once I got my lips in order and began playing it for fun, I noticed the notes sounded strange (I understand it is probably a B flat horn) so I purchased an electronic note tuner. What I found was that the notes are much higher than should be. C plays as A#, G#=C, A=D#, B=F. C=F#, etc.

Gave it a really good cleaning (again) and noticed that valve #3 is a lot shinier than the first and second, so it is likely a replacement. It is marked S3 while the others are simply 1 and 2. It may be that 3 was replaced with the wrong item. I have been unable to find anything about an S3 valve.

Have contacted a music store/repair shop but have had no response. Does anyone have any good ideas about this?

I only paid $75 for this, so not out a bunch of money if it cannot be fixed.

[kehaulani]

The trumpet/cornet is a Bb instrument, which means it is one full step above
Concert Pitch. So, on your tuner, it will show a Concert C but you have to play a D. And so forth.

Regarding the rest of your horn, I wouldn't worry about colorization. Until you get proficient, will it matter?
_________________
"If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird

Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Benge 3X Cornet
Adams F-1 Flghn

[cheiden]

The open C should play as A# (Bb) on a a tuner. That part makes sense. Written G# (23) should show as F# on the tuner, not C. The other note you list are also not right. It should be that case that pressing just the 2nd valve should lower the open tone 1/2 step. Pressing the 1st valve alone should lower the open tone 1 full step. If either of these are not true then it might be that the pistons are in the wrong cylinders. That or something else is wrong.
_________________
"I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Benge 1X C/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart

[Davidebeck]

I've checked and double checked the valves to be sure they are in the right spots and all is well. I have a typo in my earlier post in that it should have read that G, not C, plays as A#.

Thanks for the responses. I'm still at a loss as to what is going on with this little horn.

[OldSchoolEuph]

Can your tuner be configured to display transposed pitch for folks reading Eb or F parts for instance? Can you set the frequency for A on it and maybe that is way off? Have you tried the tuner with another horn or a piano?
_________________
Ron Berndt
www.trumpet-history.com

2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20

[tptptp]

So is this what you are saying?
Fingered sequence G, G#, A, B, C
Tuner shows notes A#, C, D#, F, F#

That makes no sense to me.
_________________
Craig Mitchell

[drboogenbroom]

This is a really interesting situation. Particularly since the degree of error doesn't match up from note to note. The first three notes you list are a half step apart, but the tuner registers the change between notes as a step and then a step and a half, and then the degree of difference correlates at the end of the sequence you mention.

I would initially have suggested a tuner calibration issue, but since the degree of "wrongness" isn't consistent, I'm going to go with incorrect or damaged valve slides.

Love to hear what the actual issue is if you ever figure it out. Interesting puzzle.

Kevin
_________________
By concentrating on precision, one arrives at technique, but by concentrating on technique one does not arrive at precision.

Bruno Walter

[kehaulani]

Just take it in to a local repair shop for an observation and evaluation.
_________________
"If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird

Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Benge 3X Cornet
Adams F-1 Flghn

[Beyond16]

Are you using the right fingerings? Make sure the main tuning slide is pulled out half an inch or so, and the other 3 tuning slides are in all the way. Also, make sure the shortest tuning slide is on valve 2. The medium length slide is on valve 1, and the longest slide is on valve 3. Play the lowest note with all valves open. It should be 233.08 Hz concert A#3. The next highest note possible with all valves open is 1.5X that, or 349.2 Hz concert F4.

[JayKosta]

You can check that the valves are working correctly this way.
1) Remove all the valve SLIDES, leave the pistons in the horn.
2) Blow air thru the mouthpiece, no air should come out of any of the empty valve slide tubes.
3) Depress the 1st valve, air should come out of one of the empty 1st valve slide tubes.
4) Install the the 1st valve slide.
5) Depress the 2nd valve, - same as #3
6) Install the 2nd valve slide.
7) Depress the 3rd valve, - same as #3
8) Install the 3rd valve.

Jay
_________________
Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'.

[Andy Del]

You are not playing the notes you think you are - just take the instrument to someone who can play and so them to try it out. Leave the tuner at home.
_________________
so many horns, so few good notes...

[mafields627]

Download the Bandmate Chromatic Tuner. You can set it for trumpet and it will show you on a staff which note you are playing. It's a great tool for brass players who aren't very confident with their intervals yet.
_________________
--Matt--

No representation is made that the quality of this post is greater than the quality of that of any other poster. Oh, and get a teacher!

[zaferis]

[Davidebeck]

Thanks to everyone who provided comments and suggestions. As I noted earlier, the #3 valve looks like a replacement because it is marked differently and is much shinier than the others. Here is the latest:

Checked the note tuner on our guitar and a piano and the tuner proved to be dead accurate. Next, I removed the slides and detected air movement at the 3rd valve slide. Took the valve apart and rotated it 180 degrees (only thing I could think off) but this didn't fix the problem.

Called the prior owner's daughter (she sold it for her father) and learned that he purchased the cornet used and was not involved in a valve replacement. It's odd that he didn't notice the irregular note intervals.

Been trying to locate Bundy cornet repair parts online but have not found any valves. Will take it to a repair shop first chance and see if they can locate a valve. If not, I'll purchase another cornet, new this time.

[Davidebeck]

For those suggesting I check fingering, I am a former trumpet player of many years ago and know the correct fingering. Need to put in more practice time to strengthen facial muscles and play more but have spent way too much time trying to solve the valve problem. It certainly appears that it's the wrong third valve and am asking everyone if they have any ideas where I can find the correct one.

[Crazy Finn]

A few notes:

- Have a shop guy look at it.
- The third valve might be shinier because it's used less.
- Horns like the Bundy were marked with all sorts of things that probably don't mean much. The fact your valve says S3 might mean something, or just as likely - nothing. Yup. You will be supremely disappointed if you expect Bach to be consistent with their not pro horns - because they are not, not at all.

Finally...
Again, have a shop guy look at it. I doubt you need a replacement valve. An incorrect valve is simply unlikely to have the effect you describe. The valve alters the path of the air when it's either up or down. If it's down, it directs the air though the slide corresponding with this valve. If it's up, it goes to the next valve. The slide determines the length of the tubing for that note, and thus what note comes out (more or less). The valve itself does not affect what note comes out. If it's the incorrect valve, then it's possible that the holes in the valve don't precisely line up with the slides. HOWEVER, I don't think that would create the pitch problems that you describe, it would merely make those notes respond less than optimally. If the holes don't line up at all, then the air hits the wall of the valve casing and you can't blow at all (which is what happens when you put the valves in the wrong way).

It's hard to know without having in hand.

Good luck.
_________________
LA Benge 3X Bb Trumpet
Selmer Radial Bb Trumpet
Yamaha 6335S Bb Trumpet
Besson 709 Bb Trumpet
Bach 184L Bb Cornet
Yamaha 731 Bb Flugelhorn

[JayKosta]

[Bflatman]

Edited for stupid schoolboy error

My quick and dirty is this

Remove the second slide and insert the second valve, when depressed the second valve will be seen to line up with the slide holes perfectly.

Then insert the other two valves and all the slides.

If any of the valves are inserted wrong then either air will not pass at all through the instrument with no valves depressed or as you depress each valve the one that is in wrong will stop the air flow.

So the test is this, with all valves inserted and not depressed blow into the instrument and make sure air passes through,

Then while blowing into the instrument depress each valve one at a time and if air passes through when all valves are untouched and when all valves are depressed valves are are basically ok.

Now we have a basically functioning instrument we check the slides.

While blowing into the instrument depress the second valve and listen hard to the sound of the air passing through the instrument the tone of the air passing will fall by a half step,

Release the second valve and depress the first and listen to the tone change it will be one full step.

Then release the first valve and depress the third and listen tom the tone fall by one and a half steps.

Then while blowing quickly press the second first and third valves and you should hear the tone change exactly as expected half full and one and a half step. when the second first and third valves are pressed

If you get this far and all is well then all the valves are in the right chambers and are oriented correctly and all the slides are correctly inserted.

Now pull the first slide and place a finger covering the upper tube and depress all,three valves fully while blowing into the instrument. There should be no air passing at all this is a compression test.

If it passes all these tests the valves are correct they are inserted correctly the slide are all inserted correctly and there are no air leaks between the mouthpiece and the first slide.

The horn is good and the fault lies elsewhere.

This simple test should trap all possible simple causes of horn issues covering the entire instrument from mouthpiece to first slide and includes valve orientation and slide mismatch issues and leakage issues.

It does not test everything but it tests for the most common and likely problems.

This should put you on the right track

[Beyond16]