historic mp vs modern

[Wrms]

I'm looking for information about the evolution of high brass mouthpieces. Somewhere between the flat rimed mps of the mid 1800s and back and the more rounded rims of the 1900s had to be a transition period, that's the info I'm interested in. Was Bach the start of the more rounded rim mps?

Here is some context for my inquiry; Mostly I don't mind playing vintage mps on my baroque trpt, keyed bugles and cornets but the more rounded rims are more comfortable for me going back and forth between vintage and contemporary music and horns. I can hear a difference, but its very slight, or maybe imaginary. I have a Conn Wonder Levy model that plays brighter than a Stork 3A/25 on a number of 1800s cornets, so there must of been a spread of tone concepts from bright to dark just as there is today. My vintages pieces get used as much for the taper match as for the sound. If I had a selection of vintage mp choices in pristine condition (in the right size for me) I may think differently about this.

So for those of you that play strictly vintage mps on your 1800s (or before) horns, Why?

Mark
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A bunch of trumpets
and
A bunch of cornets

[scottfsmith]

I have an 1850s or so cornet mouthpiece that has a very rounded rim. It is also narrow, the “cookie cutter” style. All the other cookie cutters I have seen also have rounded rims. The Courtois Arban mouthpieces (1860s-1900 or so) are narrower rims than modern but not as narrow as a cookie cutter; they are more rounded than the standard cornet mouthpieces of the period and are similar to standard modern rims, only a touch on the flat side I would say. So they appear to be a step between the cookie cutter and the modern style rim.

So, it could be that the more rounded rims first started on cookie cutter types and slowly moved to ever wider rims. Or maybe I have not seen enough examples.

I play Arban mouthpieces on my Arban cornet. It is a period experience, may as well jump all the way in! My cookie cutter is also excellent, and I usually play it on my Besson cornet.
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Thane Standard Large Bb / Monette Unity B6-7M mpc
Lots of vintage trumpets and mouthpieces

[Bflatman]

I have a personal view built up over the last 15 years and not too much bull**** I hope.

Trumpet and cornet development was complex.

Trumpets were designed like bugles to sound battle calls and were created to project piercing tones above the din of battle.

The earliest trumpets known were discovered in tutankamuns tomb and they sounded pretty unmusical.

Musicality was not a requirement projecting a loud tone for over a mile however was.

Cornets were designed like french post horns that were used to announce the arrival of the post coach, musicality was preferred to blaring tones as there were horses around and they did not want to scare the horses and make them bolt when the post horn was sounded.

The traditional regal baroque trumpet was a slightly different instrument musicality was important.

The early performers had a choice of rough sounding shaums and sweet sounding cornettos that were difficult to learn and play on so they welcomed the cornet and sounded lyrical on it.

Mouthpieces were oddities based upon sackbutt mouthpieces horn mouthpieces and cornetto mouthpieces but the drive was for deep rich resonant tones and that led to deep vee cups and flat or sharp rims.

It was typical of the day that students must accommodate themselves to the instrument rather than as is today to use equipment that was kind to the player. So sharp rims were seen as a requirement.

This I believe was intended to discourage poor embouchure and excessive arm strength to reach the upper register.

The best instrumentalists were cornettists such as Red Nichols and Bix Beiderbecke.

Then along came prohibition and ensembles were employed in the speak easies and in the din the cornet could not be heard so they substituted trumpets and new more lyrical trumpets were developed and used.

At that time players like Louis Armstrong arrived and they chose trumpet with shallower cups and rounded rims in their attempts to reach for the upper register and none were more determined than Louis to reach the stratosphere.

The move towards shallower cups and more comfortable rims led to the lead pieces of today and the comfort rims of today, an early example of modifying standard designs for player comfort is the conn brass mouthpiece with a rubber rim that he made to help him overcome a split lip.

The two instruments cornet and trumpet then emphasised tonal richness and lyricality in the cornet typified by deep vee cups and flat or sharp rims, and the piercing brilliant high register tones of the trumpet with rounded shallow cups and rounded comfort rims.

It is my belief that the techniques of the cornettist of lipping to control tones and play in tune was enhanced by the deeper bowl and flat rim whereas the rounded shallow cups and comfort rims limited this lipping.

At the time trumpets began to be fitted with adjustable slides on third and then on first as well. It being easier to lip notes on the deep vee cornet mouthpiece than the shallower rounded trumpet mouthpiece although it can be done on both.