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Tongue Level in Dystonia


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Trumpetingbynurture
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2020 7:25 pm    Post subject: Tongue Level in Dystonia Reply with quote

Interesting little study with some MRI footage of healthy vs dystonic patients.

Check out that the tongue is doing in each case

https://clinicalmovementdisorders.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s40734-019-0080-3
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kalijah
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2020 8:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Some bad assumptions made by this writer. And a terrible conclusion in regard to the Burnoulli principle. And I BET dollars to donuts that air velocity, pressure or air flow was NOT measured. But as usual. Assumption is made with no measurement.

It is clear that this writer has already assumed that the tongue contols pitch by air speed and discounts any contribution from the lips state and the lack of control of the lips as a problem for the diseased players.

Very little actual science here, but there is no surprise that those who can not control lip and face muscles have trouble playing. Regardless of the oral size. The oral size does not cotrol the pitch played.
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Trumpetingbynurture
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2020 9:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kalijah wrote:
Some bad assumptions made by this writer. And a terrible conclusion in regard to the Burnoulli principle. And I BET dollars to donuts that air velocity, pressure or air flow was NOT measured. But as usual. Assumption is made with no measurement.

It is clear that this writer has already assumed that the tongue contols pitch by air speed and discounts any contribution from the lips state and the lack of control of the lips as a problem for the diseased players.

Very little actual science here, but there is no surprise that those who can not control lip and face muscles have trouble playing. Regardless of the oral size. The oral size does not cotrol the pitch played.


As someone with a PhD who regularly reads psych and med studies, I can say that either you're wilfully attempting to misrepresent the study and turn it into a strawman so that you can tear it down, or you're just not used to reading medical studies. Either way, your response is a rather transparent example of exactly what you are accusing the researchers of, which is motivated reasoning.

If they are guilty of it, fine, but at least they have some observational data. All your have is motivated speculation and your insistence that your mechanical background qualifies you to perfect understand the physiological mechanisms of trumpet playing.

Whether the tongue is the primary cause of pitch change, or whether the adjustment alters some other variable that causes the pitch change is fairly irrelevant. There is another study cited which shows professional players use their tongue in a similar and consistent fashion to that observed in this study.

Is this study conclusive? Not by any means. But no one was claiming that. And as far as quality of evidence goes, this peer-reviewed study is higher quality than was some guy on the internet claims based exclusively on his own knowledge, without reference to any other source.
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John Mohan
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2020 11:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Trumpetingbynurture wrote:
kalijah wrote:
Some bad assumptions made by this writer. And a terrible conclusion in regard to the Burnoulli principle. And I BET dollars to donuts that air velocity, pressure or air flow was NOT measured. But as usual. Assumption is made with no measurement.

It is clear that this writer has already assumed that the tongue contols pitch by air speed and discounts any contribution from the lips state and the lack of control of the lips as a problem for the diseased players.

Very little actual science here, but there is no surprise that those who can not control lip and face muscles have trouble playing. Regardless of the oral size. The oral size does not cotrol the pitch played.


As someone with a PhD who regularly reads psych and med studies, I can say that either you're wilfully attempting to misrepresent the study and turn it into a strawman so that you can tear it down, or you're just not used to reading medical studies. Either way, your response is a rather transparent example of exactly what you are accusing the researchers of, which is motivated reasoning.

If they are guilty of it, fine, but at least they have some observational data. All your have is motivated speculation and your insistence that your mechanical background qualifies you to perfect understand the physiological mechanisms of trumpet playing.

Whether the tongue is the primary cause of pitch change, or whether the adjustment alters some other variable that causes the pitch change is fairly irrelevant. There is another study cited which shows professional players use their tongue in a similar and consistent fashion to that observed in this study.

Is this study conclusive? Not by any means. But no one was claiming that. And as far as quality of evidence goes, this peer-reviewed study is higher quality than was some guy on the internet claims based exclusively on his own knowledge, without reference to any other source.


Yes! It is always interesting to me how Darryl constantly claims that because "air velocity, pressure or air flow was NOT measured" that somehow means that he's right and the rest of the world is wrong. As if the lack of data in that regard proves him right. Where's his data? (Not his proclamations, but actual data).

I suggest that folks should read the cited study and draw their own conclusions.
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kalijah
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 09, 2020 2:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

But in the absence of data they resort to citing a theoretical interpretation of the Bernoulli effect. This is the typical reasoning to attempt to give the tongue direct credit for pitch. The problem is that the interpretation is not reasonable for a number of reasons.
And leads to an unlikely conclusion.

The pont is that a scientific study introduces bias and bad reasoning rather than actual data in regard to air mechanics.

There was no point in injecting that into a purely observational study, it only served ro perpetuate the myth. Lip tension is a very important variable in regard to pitch played. The lips can not "know" what the air velocity of flow is that occurs somewhere else in the system.
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mm55
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 09, 2020 3:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Trumpetingbynurture wrote:
... but at least they have some observational data.


No, they don't have any observational data about air speed. They did not observe air speed at all. They just assumed air speed with no observational basis, and no scientific justification.

Just unsupported assumptions and presumptions and a misunderstanding of Bernoulli. Apparently the peer-review jury did not include anyone familiar with Bernoulli or fluid dynamics.
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JayKosta
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 09, 2020 4:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The article does a disservice by claiming that pitch is mainly controlled by tongue POSITION - without any mention of the function of the lips as the controller of pitch.

From the body of the article (not the abstract) -
"Conclusion
The present study underlines the importance of proper tongue movements in professional trumpet players both in healthy subjects and patients suffering from EmD. In particular, the regulation of pitch appears to be mainly controlled by the anterior portion of the tongue, which requires very precise and stable movements, especially when playing in the higher register. "

Earlier in the article it is claimed -
"narrowing of the free air channel accelerates the air-flow to reach the speed for vibrating the lips at higher frequencies",
which implies that the speed of lip vibration is determined by the air flow, not the lip tissue tension.

I'm surprised at the lack of better discussion and description of embouchure because 2 of the authors appear to be experienced players -
Soenke Hellwig is a medical doctor currently specializing in movement
disorders. He is an outstanding trumpet player, performing Germany-wide in
orchestras and as soloist.
Prof. Peter Iltis is Professor of Kinesiology at Gordon College, Wenham, MA
and a professional horn-player.

note: my experience when reading journal articles is to be wary of the Abstract, and to focus on the actual content of the body of the article.

Jay
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JayKosta
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 10, 2020 6:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think the article would be improved by removal of the speculation about what tongue position accomplishes (specifically regarding air speed/velocity), and to simply concentrate on how the tongue is positioned by the various players.

I would rewrite the Conclusion with this change of wording -

Conclusion
The present study underlines the importance of proper tongue movements in professional trumpet players both in healthy subjects and patients suffering from EmD. In particular, the regulation of pitch appears to be

STRIKE THIS "mainly controlled by"
INSERT THIS "strongly associated with"

the anterior portion of the tongue, which requires very precise and stable movements, especially when playing in the higher register. For trumpet players with EmD, the regain of control of the precision in the movements of the anterior part of the tongue may be an adequate way of improving the playing ability. Therefore further therapy-oriented research is required as more efficient treatment strategies are urgently needed [11]. Based on the present findings, we suggest a retraining-therapy that should focus on the anterior section of the tongue in order to regain precision, stability and control. Further real-time MRI studies of musicians with and without EmD should compare tongue movements in different brass instruments in order to gain further insights into mechanistic alterations and possible therapeutic options.

Jay
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EBjazz
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 12, 2020 5:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Air speed comments aside, as someone who is suffering from dystonia, it is an interesting study. I'm not sure it's helpful to me in any way, however I can remember how playing felt before dystonia compared to today and can relate to what they are saying.
Thanks for posting this.

Eb
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trptdoc
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2020 9:22 am    Post subject: Dystonia and Parkinsons Dz Reply with quote

As someone who believes that tongue position is a huge part of pitch control, I also recognize that without the muscular support of the embrochure nothing works . It took 5 years for me to realize what I thought was dystonia destroying the ease of playing to realize it was Parkinsons Disease that made my once unfatigueable chops to turn to mush. No amount of tongue level work changed anything. It requires the whole mechanism to work. It seems this debate will never convince some who thinks its an all or none issue
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EBjazz
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2020 1:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry to hear that trpdoc. I don't have Parkinson's....Yet.
I do suffer from RBD which in 70% of cases does lead to Parkinson's.

Eb
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trptdoc
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2020 2:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Eric. So sorry to hear about your dystonia. About the only thing that slows down and maybe even prevents Parkinson’s is exercise-lots of it. Research on bicycling is pretty convincing. 7 days a week of strenuous exercise. I can tell a difference in my chops after exercise. Unfortunately I now just play for my own amazement. Hopefully you are not heading into this dreaded disease. I have always admired your expertise. The “knack” for playing is still in my memory bank but fine control is gone. Are you doing any therapy for your dystonia?
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EBjazz
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2020 3:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you. I do work out at least 5 days. Sorry to hear about your PD. I get checked yearly, but as of yet, no symptoms. I was working with one of the dystonia experts but no help there. I've taken trumpet lessons with just about every one who I think could help, but no help. Lately I've been taking with Greg Spence and some of his ideas seem to be helping.

Thanks!!~

Eb
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harryjamesworstnightmare
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2020 8:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kalijah wrote:
But in the absence of data they resort to citing a theoretical interpretation of the Bernoulli effect. This is the typical reasoning to attempt to give the tongue direct credit for pitch. The problem is that the interpretation is not reasonable for a number of reasons.
And leads to an unlikely conclusion.

The pont is that a scientific study introduces bias and bad reasoning rather than actual data in regard to air mechanics.

There was no point in injecting that into a purely observational study, it only served ro perpetuate the myth. Lip tension is a very important variable in regard to pitch played. The lips can not "know" what the air velocity of flow is that occurs somewhere else in the system.


Where is YOUR data to back up your claims? Put up or shut up!
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Jeff_Purtle
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 22, 2020 6:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interesting study and video. I just skimmed it really fast and watched the two videos with healthy vs dystonia patient. You can see they both are not tonguing with KTM and the healthy one sounds better and the tongue is working more correct and efficient. You can see and hear it. It's interesting.

I have had some interesting conversations with students and friends regarding the concepts of tongue level and I hope to some day summarize them all. My cousin is currently working on the avionics on the Stealth bomber and deals with the electronics behind getting the computer system to make that flying wing fly. My girlfriend's son just graduated from Embry-Riddle Aeronics University in Daytona, FL and is now a pilot for American Airlines and took lots of physics and aeronautics classes. My biological dad, his friend and my half brother deal with air flow on top fuel dragsters, race cars, racing motorcycles and professional go-carts. All these people deal with airflow in various ways.

Some people can't be convinced but those of us that have experienced the acute feel of tongue level know the security, ease and accuracy it gives your playing. It's also worth noting that it is ALL 7 of the items coordinated that allow us to become the best player.

These are also not new ideas even with Claude Gordon. I once wrote a paper in History of Performance Practices in college and read a book from Bach's time where the trumpet player described tongue level and K tongue modified single tonguing in a similar way to Claude Gordon and Herbert L. Clarke. This is such a crucial concept that you have to ask why it is that players could do phenomenal things in Bach's time and then lost it for a number of years until the famous cornetists like Jules Levy, Bohumir Kryl, Walter Rogers, Herbert Clarke could play from pedal C to double C and beyond again.

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JayKosta
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 22, 2020 7:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jeff_Purtle wrote:
... All these people deal with airflow in various ways.
...

---------------------------------
It would be interesting to discuss how the air (or vehicle) speed affects the vibrations on various parts of the vehicle. Does it affect the rate (frequency) of the vibrations or the amplitude (~loudness).
Other items for discussion could be how changes in shape or strength of various parts affects vibrations.

Jay
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illegalbugler
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 25, 2020 9:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

EBjazz wrote:
Thank you. I do work out at least 5 days. Sorry to hear about your PD. I get checked yearly, but as of yet, no symptoms. I was working with one of the dystonia experts but no help there. I've taken trumpet lessons with just about every one who I think could help, but no help. Lately I've been taking with Greg Spence and some of his ideas seem to be helping.

Thanks!!~

Eb


Best wishes to you!
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John Mohan
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 08, 2020 10:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm so sorry to hear of your Parkinson's and Dystonia issues Larry and Eric! That is awful.

Best wishes,

John
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John Mohan
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 08, 2020 10:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jeff_Purtle wrote:
Some people can't be convinced but those of us that have experienced the acute feel of tongue level know the security, ease and accuracy it gives your playing. It's also worth noting that it is ALL 7 of the items coordinated that allow us to become the best player.


YES!
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John Mohan
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 08, 2020 10:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jeff_Purtle wrote:
These are also not new ideas even with Claude Gordon. I once wrote a paper in History of Performance Practices in college and read a book from Bach's time where the trumpet player described tongue level and K tongue modified single tonguing in a similar way to Claude Gordon and Herbert L. Clarke. This is such a crucial concept that you have to ask why it is that players could do phenomenal things in Bach's time and then lost it for a number of years until the famous cornetists like Jules Levy, Bohumir Kryl, Walter Rogers, Herbert Clarke could play from pedal C to double C and beyond again.


YES!!!
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