Infinity and BEYOND!!!---

Emb_Enh · Veteran Member Joined: 29 Oct 2002 Posts: 455

I am focussing my chat on range mostly.

Musicality would be a whole different ball game.[but they are VERY closely related]

The subject.....Muscle based players.

These players can squeeze notes out above High G [DHC] ...and in fact as long as there are not too many in a day, can make it sound quite convincing.

IMHO there are.... 8 types of range players...

1. has'nt really got any range at all .... can hit up to high c with varying degrees of consistency etc...etc...

2. has really got ''good control'' etc.. can PLAY brilliantly to high c [and squeeze a few more]

3... can hit up to high g [4 leger lines] with varying degrees of consistency etc...etc...

4.... can PLAY brilliantly to high g [and squeeze a few more]

5... can hit up to DHC with varying degrees of consistency etc...

6....can PLAY brilliantly to DHC [Most Pro lead players of today ] [and squeeze a few more]

7..... can hit beyond DHC with varying degrees of consistency

8..... can PLAY brilliantly beyond DHC....and NEVER SQUEEZE

Lots of players [ # 1 thru 4 ]..... mistake ''hitting'' for ''playing''.

Lots of players...... find getting to # 4..... a real struggle.

Some guys spend ALL their time ''hitting'' never with a thought to ''playing''.

How do you become a # 8 ? ...start at # 2 then / 4 / 6 / 8...Bingo!!! [simple! : ) ]

Here's the biggie....

Most players [ # 1 thru 4 ] who mistake ''hitting'' for ''playing'' are the guys who go around saying....'' how high can you really play?''

...what they really mean is how high can you hit?

Hitting requires air volume ///// Playing requires air speed

Just my thoughts.

Yours Roddy o-iii<O http://www.R-o-d-d-y-T-r-u-m-p-e-t.cC
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"E M B O U C H U R E___E N H A N C E M E N T"
BOOK 1 also... BOOK 2 + demo CD

[Self Analysis and Diagnostic Trumpet Method]

trickg · Posted: Tue Apr 16, 2002 5:30 am Post subject:

Interesting post. Unfortunately, I find myself falling right in between 2 and 3 although in discussions about my "range" I'm pretty careful to state that I have a practice room double G and only have about and Eb on the gig.

I don't think that simply climbing the numbers up to number 8 is how it works though.

The "how high can you play" thing is mostly a HS thing from what I have seen. True, I would love to be able to do more but with where I am in life and playing, I don't have the time or energy to try to take it to the next level. Maybe one day I'll have a break through and I'll be one of those guys who can play brilliantly up to double G and squeeze a few more. That would be all I would ever want or need.
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Emb_Enh · Veteran Member Joined: 29 Oct 2002 Posts: 455

climbing 2-8 is not simple...I was being facetious!

Rod
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"E M B O U C H U R E___E N H A N C E M E N T"
BOOK 1 also... BOOK 2 + demo CD

[Self Analysis and Diagnostic Trumpet Method]

Greatest Trumpeter · Posted: Tue Apr 16, 2002 8:00 pm Post subject:

I have a question. Is double C the C 2 lines above the staff?
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Quadruple C · Heavyweight Member Joined: 28 Nov 2001 Posts: 1448

[ This Message was edited by: Quadruple C on 2003-10-01 15:04 ]

Composing Trumpet · Posted: Tue Apr 16, 2002 10:38 pm Post subject:

Double C is above the 5th ledger line. What you are referring to is commonly called "high" C. However I've always been kind of confused about where the "double" range starts. I always thought F#6 (top of third ledger) since the lowest low note you can play naturally is an F# (low, middle, high, double etc.) When I started taking lessons with bobby shew though, he was saying that the way it has always been is that C7 (top of 5th ledger) is the first double note. He's been around longer than most of us, so he must know what he's talking about eh?

Mike Fortunato

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Although music can be rationalized in scientific, academic, and economic terms, never lose sight of the fact that it is mankinds only truly abstract art form.

[ This Message was edited by: Composing Trumpet on 2002-04-17 01:40 ]

_Don Herman · Posted: Wed Apr 17, 2002 6:55 am Post subject:

Where "double" starts is an endless (seemingly) discussion. FWIW, everybody seems to agree on C's -- first C over the staff is high C, next is double (high) C, and so on. The confusion lies with the other notes, and specifically the G. Schools of thought:

(1) Index (begin counting) from C. Then, the first C over the staff is high C, and everything from that note to the next is high X. So, the G over high C is high G, then high A, etc. Double G is the one over double C in this system.

(2) Begin the "double" range based upon the second time a note appears over the staff. Then that first C over the staff remains "high C", but now F over that is "high F" (first time it's over the staff) and the G over high C is "double G" because it's the second one over the staff.

I originally learned scheme (1), but (2) seems more prevalent these days. Charly has a system which uses G1, G2, etc. indexed from the lowest "normal" note on the horn (low F#, the one below the staff) and would end the confusion. Once everybody decides to adhere to it. I reckon I'll keep doing my best (now we're in trouble) to thoroughly define what note I'm talkin' about.

HTH - Don
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"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music." - Aldous Huxley

_bugleboy · Posted: Wed Apr 17, 2002 9:27 am Post subject:

Mike,

Go to the trumpet stuff web site (when it comes back up) and you'll see a link connecting to what is referred to as a "triple B" as played by John Madrid (and it's smokin'!) If double notes start at double C then this B should be referred to as a double B, not a triple B. This would mean that, according to 'trumpet stuff,' the double B is one half step below the double C.

A lot of guys start the double range at C above high C. And yet many guys refer to the A, Bb, and B just below it as doubles. I think the whole naming thing is typical of the inconsistencies among trumpet players as to exactly what they are talking about. This is not intended to be derogatory. Trumpet players, regardless of their virtuosic level, traditionally express themselves very subjectively or parrot the words of their teachers unquestioningly.

The first note on the horn is an F#. I call it F#1.
The first C is low C which becomes C1.
Double C becomes C4 and the B just under it becomes B4.

No doubles, no triples, no quads ............................ no confusion!

CR

PS And I don't particularly care how notes are numbered on the piano. I play the trumpet. Tell the piano players to stay in their own yard.

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[ This Message was edited by: bugleboy on 2002-04-17 12:32 ]

Composing Trumpet · Posted: Wed Apr 17, 2002 12:13 pm Post subject:

Bugleboy,
I agree that the use of terms such as high, triple, double are somewhat ambiguous and can be quite confusing. I think the number system (C4, B6 etc) is a much better way to go. However I don't think we should be "trumpetcentric" and start the low F# as F#1. We know which notes we're playing. The main purpose of labeling the notes is to have consistent way of measuring register when playing in an ensemble. I for one very rarely ever play with just trumpet players. Also I don't think the numbering system has too much to do with the piano (although it falls quite nicely) because then it would start with A1 not C1. The lowest A is referred to as A0 I believe. Also, we'd have to start using negative numbers for pedal notes, or maybe start with single and double pedals, which would kind of defeat the purpose. Just my two cents. Out.

Mike Fortunato

Emb_Enh · Veteran Member Joined: 29 Oct 2002 Posts: 455

Who cares what they are called...it's how well you PLAY them!

Roddy o-iii<O
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"E M B O U C H U R E___E N H A N C E M E N T"
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[Self Analysis and Diagnostic Trumpet Method]

_bugleboy · Posted: Wed Apr 17, 2002 3:00 pm Post subject:

Mike,

Identifying pedals doesn't present a real problem for me. I call them pedals and double pedals. I have never known anyone confused about what a double pedal is.

But I would never start the numbering system with them because they're not in the normal range.

Starting a numbering system with zero or one seems to be equally valid. However, I like using the number 1 for two reasons.

First, a zero(0) looks like a capital O. 0 or O. O or 0. Then you have notes identified as B0, D0, F0 and G0. Weird.

Second, it is common in music to start with 'one' and not 'zero' as, for example, when numbering measures and beats within measures. The number 'one' comes at the beginning of the bar as it does at the beginning of a beat.

_Don Herman · Posted: Wed Apr 17, 2002 8:39 pm Post subject:

Anna Zero, anna One, anna Two, anna Three, anna Go!

Yeah, just doesn't have that same ring to it, somehow.

We could number the ones over double C, but they might be imaginary... (OK, I should know better than to post an engineering joke...)

Reckon I'll stick to talking them all out so everybody knows which note I'm talkin' about.

Sorry up too late tonight! Duckin' and runnin' - Don
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"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music." - Aldous Huxley

Quadruple C · Heavyweight Member Joined: 28 Nov 2001 Posts: 1448

[ This Message was edited by: Quadruple C on 2003-10-01 15:04 ]

Emb_Enh · Veteran Member Joined: 29 Oct 2002 Posts: 455

YOU GOT IT MR.QUAD!!!

Right on the button as USUAL!!!

Take care...

Roddy o-iii<O
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"E M B O U C H U R E___E N H A N C E M E N T"
BOOK 1 also... BOOK 2 + demo CD

[Self Analysis and Diagnostic Trumpet Method]

Quadruple C · Heavyweight Member Joined: 28 Nov 2001 Posts: 1448

[ This Message was edited by: Quadruple C on 2003-10-01 15:05 ]