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spitvalve
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Joined: 11 Mar 2002
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Location: Little Elm, TX
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 Posted: Tue Aug 04, 2020 2:13 pm Post subject: |
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| kalijah wrote: | | Quote: | | At 110 dB you're talking about seriously damaging the ears of whomever is listening (not to mention your own). The 123dB guy you mentioned...he's a hazard and I'd leave his concert if I were listening. |
Only if you were 8 feet in front of him as was the stated distance.
Sound power is not db. db is loudness level at some point.
It diminishes quite drastically with distance from the sound source.
A loud dynamic from a lead player in a big band is not necessarily too loud depending on the musical context. I just feel bad for the trombonist in proximity. |
I've lost count of how many lead trombonists I've seen who had a bald spot on the back of their heads. This must be the reason.
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deleted_user_687c31b
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Joined: 03 Apr 1996
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| Posted: Tue Aug 04, 2020 9:07 pm Post subject: |
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| kalijah wrote: | Only if you were 8 feet in front of him as was the stated distance.
Sound power is not db. db is loudness level at some point.
It diminishes quite drastically with distance from the sound source.
A loud dynamic from a lead player in a big band is not necessarily too loud depending on the musical context. I just feel bad for the trombonist in proximity. |
You'd need a distance of about 200 feet before that 120 dB reaches acceptable levels. At that point, bands often use microphones anyway. Destroying your fellow player's ears just to show off is just wrong. |
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Subtropical and Subpar
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| Posted: Tue Aug 04, 2020 9:10 pm Post subject: |
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"How loud is your upper register?"
Mostly just squeaks and eeks.
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trumpet56
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Joined: 16 Jun 2010
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| Posted: Tue Aug 04, 2020 9:18 pm Post subject: |
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| I can play as loud and as soft as I can sing. I am not looking for volume but for resonance. I am not trying to blow air through the trumpet but setting up the sound wave. |
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kalijah
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Joined: 06 Nov 2003
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Location: Alabama
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| Posted: Wed Aug 05, 2020 5:45 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | You'd need a distance of about 200 feet before that 120 dB reaches acceptable levels. At that point, bands often use microphones anyway. Destroying your fellow player's ears just to show off is just wrong. |
It depends on what you mean by "acceptable".
I was not referring to a specific level by a musician in performance. Indeed 120db is EXTREMELY loud.
But the relative level at 25 ft would be half as loud. At 200 ft. it would be about 1/8 the loudness as from 8 ft. Whether that is "acceptable" or not depends on other factors.
True loudness measurements for point sources can only be accurately measured in an anechoic environment,
In a natural space a good portion of the sound measured could be from reflected sound or even a room resonance, this could skew the measurement. |
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kalijah
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Location: Alabama
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| Posted: Wed Aug 05, 2020 5:55 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | I can play as loud and as soft as I can sing |
Most can play MUCH louder than they can sing for the same air power input. The brass instrument is a more efficient acoustic load than the human voice. Namely because it has much more resonance and acoustic impedance at those resonances.
| Quote: | | I am not looking for volume but for resonance. |
Resonance is in the instrument and is a constant. Loud sounds and soft sounds , and all in between, exploit the resonance. Relative loudness is controlled by varying power input, not varying resonance.
| Quote: | | I am not trying to blow air through the trumpet but setting up the sound wave. |
Air flow into the instrument, from a pressure source, is required to supply power to the sound. Air flow is not optional. |
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kehaulani
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Joined: 23 Mar 2003
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Location: Hawai`i - Texas
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| Posted: Wed Aug 05, 2020 6:31 am Post subject: |
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| kalijah wrote: |
Most can play MUCH louder than they can sing for the same air power input. The brass instrument is a more efficient acoustic load than the human voice. |
I don't know about that, Kalijah, unless I'm reading this wrong. I've heard opera singers soaring above an entire orchestra (unamplified). Resonance has a lot to do with the effectiveness of projection.
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kalijah
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| Posted: Wed Aug 05, 2020 6:54 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Resonance has a lot to do with the effectiveness of projection. |
"Projection" is a mythical term. There is only loudness and perception.
The resonance we exploit is the instrument resonance. It has FAR more resonance and more defined and strong acoustic impedances than the vocal tract.
An opera singer may indeed be able to be loud but would required more air power (namely air flow) for the same loudness of a loud brass musician. |
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kehaulani
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| Posted: Wed Aug 05, 2020 7:01 am Post subject: |
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[quote="kalijah"] | Quote: | | "Projection" is a mythical term. There is only loudness and perception. |
Well, I disagree with that statement, but no need to rehash it. Thanks for your other observations, I appreciate it.
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JVL
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| Posted: Wed Aug 05, 2020 9:21 am Post subject: |
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Hello
Opera singers are exception vs lambda people.
Antic armies used "brass" instruments to communicate the different orders to the troops, because they could be heard farer and more distinctly, especially in such noisy contexts, than human voices
best |
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Trumpetingbynurture
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| Posted: Wed Aug 05, 2020 2:48 pm Post subject: |
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| lipshurt wrote: | Sometimes for fun at the the school where I teach, during a marching brass rehearsal we will have a decibel contest. Myself, other staff brass players and some good high school players will set up 20 feet (that’s a lot) from a decibel meter. Here is what’s basically happens in a room 60x60 feet and 20 foot ceilings:
For me I get the most decibels at around high C which is 118 decibels. If I play high G as loud as I can it sounds louder to everyone, but the meter says 112 or so.
One of our bone player staff guys can EASILY get 123 on the meter, but if you ask me it doesn’t sound that loud.
Our tuba staff guy, who is good, gets about 115 and it sounds like thunder.
Kids who are pretty good are about 2 or 3 decibels under the staff guys. 3 decibels is significant by the way.
Never tried it from 8 feet |
That's as loud as an amplified rock concert. Are you sure your metre is working? Haha
The only other example I've seen at 123db was about a foot from the device away. Which works out at ~95 at the same 20 foot distance.
It's possible that the room is adding volume if you have the mic set up somewhere there is a node forming and the reflected sound is adding to the peak volume.
Still, that's crazy. Thanks for sharing |
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lipshurt
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| Posted: Wed Aug 05, 2020 3:01 pm Post subject: |
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Not confident in the meter. It was a iPhone app called decibel meter. A loud marching band hit at 100 feet is about 102 on the meter. The freeway behind our practice field is usually about 60
That 118 dB was with the rum pet pointed right at it. I saw Groupon niche in a sports arena and the trumpet player was walking away from his mic and playing with the trombones I guess to get warmed up and he was easily as loud as when he was on his mic. The only difference was you could only hear him when his bell pointed directly at you. So the sound system really did not make the trumpet louder, it just spread the sound in all directions. That was a loud concert with a giant system and 20k people I was was about 50 feet from the trumpet bell and 30 feet from a giant bank of speakers
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deleted_user_687c31b
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| Posted: Wed Aug 05, 2020 9:36 pm Post subject: |
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| kalijah wrote: | | It depends on what you mean by "acceptable". |
120dB at 8 feet translates to 90 dB at 200 feet. According to the literature you can listen to that for about an hour before it starts damaging your ears.
If the measurement was taken at 1 feet (rather than 8 feet), you'd still be at 96dB at 16 feet. Which means that the whole band could listen to you for about 15 minutes before they start to develop hearing damage.
Now, I'll admit it's just a 'paper napkin' calculation (using this chart for convenience) so I may be off a few feet. That being said, 120dB is just not acceptable unless your fellow musicians are wearing earplugs. |
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kalijah
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Location: Alabama
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| Posted: Tue Aug 11, 2020 8:24 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Which means that the whole band could listen to you for about 15 minutes before they start to develop hearing damage. |
Assuming on is playing at that level continuously for 15 minutes.
Musical passages of extreme loudness are not required to be 120db, and are likely of limited duration, mercifully.
A demonstration of peak loudness from a player is not going to be sustained to the point of causing damage. |
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deleted_user_687c31b
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| Posted: Tue Aug 11, 2020 12:38 pm Post subject: |
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| kalijah wrote: | | Assuming on is playing at that level continuously for 15 minutes. |
Sounds of 120 dB and up can damage your hearing instantly. The post I originally replied to mentioned 123dB (twice the volume of 120dB). If someone in my band pulled a stunt like that, I'd pack up my things and leave.
Seriously, if the audience cannot hear your solo then the band is too loud. |
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Robert P
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| Posted: Tue Aug 11, 2020 10:07 pm Post subject: |
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One of the things that struck me when I began to hear pro players in person was how *LOUD* they played.
The first time I saw Maynard live in the Virginia Beach area when I was at the Armed Forces School Of Music, I got what seemed like a great seat, just a few rows back from the stage, center stage. When Maynard came out I was right in front of him. "Great!" I thought.
The thing was, I'd only heard him on records - I wasn't prepared for what the reality was of being right in the blast zone of his horn - JAAAYZUS!! I'm sure you've seen the Memorex ad with the guy in the chair with everything being air blasted by the stereo. He had a mic but it didn't seem to matter whether he used it or not, he could readily be heard soaring above what had to be among the strongest bands on Earth.
I couldn't help recalling a guy who I'd previously heard ranting about how in reality Maynard had a thin, small sound and he was the product of studio tricks. I have to assume he'd never actually heard Maynard in person. This was before i knew anything about Maynard's long career, Kenton etc. I was only familiar with white jump suit and shades Maynard.
Ditto hearing Doc live the first time - again, you don't get the full Doc experience only hearing him on records. Same deal - with the band cranking away you could hear Doc over top of them no problem. There's a certain incongruity hearing Doc generate such a huge sound - he's not a big guy - probably 5'8, I would guess 150ish lbs at the time.
Heard Vince DiMartino at a clinic in Orlando - another super loud player.
Also while I was at the School Of Music the Navy Commodores performed, their lead player was a guy named Gary Adams - big barrel of a guy, absolute beast of a player. I see he died earlier this year. |
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delano
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Location: The Netherlands
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| Posted: Wed Aug 12, 2020 12:27 am Post subject: |
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| My high register is so loud that it hurts. So I don’t use it anymore. |
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Lionel
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Joined: 25 Jul 2016
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| Posted: Thu Aug 13, 2020 12:23 am Post subject: Re: How loud is your upper register? |
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| Trumpetingbynurture wrote: | Okay, this is one of those posts that seems like a meat-head thing, but that's not why I'm asking. Mostly I'm just curious.
For the most part these days, the trumpets we hear are mic'ed and/or amplified and/or compression is added etc.
And as someone who does not play lead trumpet or hang out with lead trumpet players, I honestly have no idea how loud players like Wayne Bergeron are actually playing. You hear a recording of Wayne playing a double A and are like "wowza" but I have no idea whether that Double A is coming out of his instrument at 80db 100db or 120db.
How loud does a Double C actually have to be to cut through a Big band?
So forgive this question and potential invoking of egos that it is bound to generate but how loud is a 'loud enough' in the upper register?
Obviously distance from he source is relevant here. |
These are good questions. PresentlyLynn Nicholson immediately comes to mind as showing us the best of both worlds. Outrageous high notes. Probably well in excess of Triple C. All that and combined with fantastic volume. He's a breath taking character.
Then on the other had are some very capable lead players but who must use the microphone. As they can't produce notes above high C at more than a trickle. For reasons of confidentiality I don't name names. Heck the trumpet can be difficult enough. And for recording purposes it hardly matters at what volume they play. As fvs zfudio engineer ultimately has the final say.
In fact there is one popular method that goes on today that typically produces high note players whose tone above hugh G,
"Just BARELY leaks out from the bell of the horn".lol. and he, a New England acquaintance of mine always has that microphone. Even in a small club.
Okay before I trash the reputation of
some fine musicians? Here's some hints of how to get a bigger sound.
On lead playing you might experiment using shallow mouthpieces but with very open throat/back-bore. The throat should be drilled to a #23 bit. As opposed to the standard #27 and #28. To give you an idea how Maynard got that huge, lyrical sound? The Boss used a HUGE #16 or even #15. These are flugel horn dimensions. And good Lord how well he played. Fat sound, excellent intonaton.
So get the best equipment for your work. Check out that Jazz trumpet site that lists who plays what. Oddly enough there seems to be a great number who've found the Schilke 6A to work great.
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John Mohan
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Joined: 13 Nov 2001
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Location: Chicago, Illinois
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| Posted: Thu Aug 13, 2020 6:11 am Post subject: |
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| kehaulani wrote: | | kalijah wrote: |
Most can play MUCH louder than they can sing for the same air power input. The brass instrument is a more efficient acoustic load than the human voice. |
I don't know about that, Kalijah, unless I'm reading this wrong. I've heard opera singers soaring above an entire orchestra (unamplified). Resonance has a lot to do with the effectiveness of projection. |
He wrote "most" not "all". A professional opera singer is going to be able to sing much louder than a typical person.
I remember back in my circus days when the ringmaster and still one of my best friends Blake Davidson (currently one of the three https://3rednecktenors.com/ ) and I would warm up before outdoor show dates (he sang through the show) and his voice would bounce back off the far bleachers just as loudly as my trumpet sound. I've had similar experiences with other great singers, both male and female, throughout my career.
Best wishes,
John Mohan
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John Mohan
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| Posted: Thu Aug 13, 2020 6:18 am Post subject: Re: How loud is your upper register? |
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| Lionel wrote: | | ...Maynard got that huge, lyrical sound... |
Maynard did have a great sound and he could play loud. But I can tell you, back in the 1970's when they were closing the show with Hey Jude, and his trumpet players would go out in the audience and play the ending motif of the song back and forth with him, Dennis Noday was WAY louder than Maynard. At one concert at that point I was equal distance from both of them (one of the highlights of my trumpet-related life!!!). When Maynard played the line it sounded great - but most of the sound was coming from the sound system. I could also here his sound coming from him directly and it was nice and full, but then when Dennis answered there was this WALL of sound coming from Dennis's bell.
Concerning Wayne Bergeron's volume capabilities, having played next to him back in the '80's I find it difficult to believe anyone can play a whole lot louder than him. I can't (and I can play pretty loud myself).
Cheers,
John |
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