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Light and heavy trumpets


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dcstep
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PostPosted: Mon May 09, 2005 4:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

JasonHarrelson wrote:


The term "weight" is inappropriate and very confusing. Why does everyone have this strange assumption???

If you've read Professor Moore's article in the latest ITG journal, why don't you explain where his test is flawed?

Dave
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tx trpt
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PostPosted: Mon May 09, 2005 5:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dcstep references an excellent article by Thomas Moore. It is worth taking the time to read the article in the March ITG Journal. The article is only 1 1/2 pages long but it shares some very valid information.
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Wheeler
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PostPosted: Mon May 09, 2005 6:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have experimented with weight. Heavy caps, sheet braces, heavy MPC's and heavy recievers all darken the sound of any trumpet I've had them put on. Not only darken, but eliminate a *lot* of overtones if gone to excess. I've tried Monettes, Taylors, Courtois Ev's, and Selmer TT's and a ton of "custom" stuff and they all play the same for me... dead. A lot of famous cats like 'em, so I won't bash 'em, but I don't like 'em.

I don't have scientific evidence, but it would be seriously difficult to convince me that these horns don't play "dark".... which is a real scienitific word
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so55
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PostPosted: Mon May 09, 2005 7:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Let's make the following definitions first:

- fluid: air within trumpet
- structure: trumpet
- response: velocity and pressure of fluid; displacement, velocity and acceleration of structure as a function of time

If the structure is assumed to be rigid, then there is no interaction between the fluid and structure. Hence the weight of structure will have no effect on the response of fluid. Only the interior geometry of the structure will affect it. That is the leadpipe diameters, the shape of the bell, shape of the tuning slide, etc...

If the structure is flexible, then there will be an interaction between the fluid and the structure, i.e. the response of fluid will affect the response of structure and vice versa. Then the amount of mass, the mass distribution and the material properties of the structure will also be important in addition to the interior geometry since the response of the structure depends not only on the external loading (fluid pressure) but also by its geometrical (exterior+interior) and material properties. Then everything is a factor to be considered, e.g. the weight and location of a valve cap..

I believe that a detailed fluid-structure interaction analysis for trumpets will reveal the facts. At the end of this study it is possible to conclude that for a certain trumpet design, the effect of the flexibility of structure is marginal while for another trumpet design it may be considerable.

These are two extreme cases. I think the first one is not realistic. In my opinion, at least the flexibility of the bell must be considered even if the rest of the structure is assumed to be rigid.

By the way, I'm not a specialist in fluid mechanics or acoustics. My expertise is in solid mechanics, so read this post with caution and correct me if necessary.
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JasonHarrelson
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PostPosted: Mon May 09, 2005 8:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I really don't want to start a debate on this topic again, BUT it is NOT TRUE. Adding weight to a horn does not necessarily make it play darker. I have done experiments using more than 300 bracing/weight configurations...some of which were done in a lab much like in Moore's article in the ITG.

Moore's experiment involved damping the bell with sandbags to measure the difference in amplitude of each of the overtones on a single pitch, Bb. He doesn't state that he weighed the sandbags or tried various weights. Weight is not mentioned as a factor in the experiment. His experiment was focused on damping the vibrations of the bell. Let me first point out that the experiment involved clamping the trumpet to a table, which will change results in itself. BUT what can you do? I agree with Moore, it is very difficult to remove the human element and if clamping the horn to a table allowed his mechanical driver, then great! I applaud Moore and his students for undertaking such a difficult experiment and for their success in building a mechanical driver (lips).

Like Moore said, musicians have known for many years that damping the bell, or bracing it, or building it from different alloys of various gauge will change the sound of the horn. I AGREE. I am a musician and first discovered this phenomena when I was 19 and played a Monette trumpet for the first time. I have done many experiments that show an amplitude gain of 3-5 times on almost every overtone by bracing the bell and leadpipe of a trumpet in an unconventional way. But weight has nothing to do with the results. I can build two horns with the same bracing configuration, one with brass bracing and the other of plastic bracing and the amplitude gain in the overtone series is identical. Yet, one horn weighs two pounds less than the other.

To take this concept a step further. I developed a system of bracing (not just adding lots of weight) that will increase the amplitude of the upper overtones more than the lower overtones. In other words, I can make a horn sound brighter by adding the correct bracing configuration. Again, the weight of the bracing material has no significant impact on the desired results.

I've considered building a line of trumpets with delrin bracing for those players who feel 3-4 pounds is a workout. I'm just not sure people want to play a horn with man-made plastic bracing.

A lot of people think heavy horns or horns with extra bracing sound dead or don't resonate. It is easy to make such a blanket statement, but it is incorrect. But I do understand where you're coming from. Monette and Taylor have built some very "dead" sounding horns. But they are only "dead" to the listener that doesn't spend a few weeks acclimating and listening. There was a great thread on this topic last year by JAZZ-PLAYER-COLLECTOR which is a must read for anyone thinking all heavy horns play "dead". These manufacturers intentionally build horns to amplify the lower overtones in the sound to create a new character. To say it is "dead" or "bad" is just an opinion. But to say all heavy horns sound like those few models is a mistake. The science exists to build very efficient horns with a dark sound, a bright sound or a sound between dark and bright. I have been building and modifying horns to play to the client's preference for years.

Jason Harrelson
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tx trpt
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PostPosted: Mon May 09, 2005 10:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

JasonHarrelson wrote:
I really don't want to start a debate on this topic again, BUT it is NOT TRUE. Adding weight to a horn does not necessarily make it play darker. ........

Like Moore said, musicians have known for many years that damping the bell, or bracing it, or building it from different alloys of various gauge will change the sound of the horn. I AGREE. Jason Harrelson


In an effort to learn from those who have more knowledge and experience than me, may I ask this question? If a builder could build two exactly identical trumpets (bracing, caps, leadpipes, bores, etc.) except that one trumpet was made of a heavier gauge metal, then would there be a difference in the sound of the two instruments?

Thank you for being patient with those of us who are seeking to satisfy our intellectual curiosity.
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Horatio Hornblower
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PostPosted: Mon May 09, 2005 10:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

With all due respect to Mr. Harrelson and his belief: "But they(heavy weight horns) are only "dead" to the listener that doesn't spend a few weeks acclimating and listening."..There exists enough a wide difference of opinion about this question between artists like Charlie Schleuter and Phil Smith to suggest that this question is as much about opinion as it is about science..and I am am more likely to be persuaded by my own ears than what ever any other person, or horn maker tells me is so.
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JasonHarrelson
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PostPosted: Mon May 09, 2005 10:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

tx trpt wrote:

In an effort to learn from those who have more knowledge and experience than me, may I ask this question? If a builder could build two exactly identical trumpets (bracing, caps, leadpipes, bores, etc.) except that one trumpet was made of a heavier gauge metal, then would there be a difference in the sound of the two instruments?

Yes, The Yamaha line of horns is a perfect example. Measure the Xeno against the standard and heavy weight 6xxx series and you will find the same horns duplicated in various gauges. The Xeno has a very thick wall tubing compared to most other trumpets. This thicker wall carries the standing wave more efficiently resulting in better response and an increase in amplitude of the overtone series.

Horatio...I believe opinions are valid and important no matter who they come from or what the view may be. But we cannot say that all heavy horns are "dead" or dark unless we have played all the heavy horns.

Jason Harrelson
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DCB1
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PostPosted: Mon May 09, 2005 11:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Very nice post Mr. Harrelson. I would love to play some of your creations..... but then again that would probably cost me a lot of $$$$.
Maybe I will send one of mine to you someday.
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trickg
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PostPosted: Mon May 09, 2005 11:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hypothesis: What if one were to take a solid cylinder of brass, 5 inches in diameter, and bore out the bell shape? How would THAT sound? It would certainly be heavy, but it would allow almost no resonance. (Edit/Note: this is probably a pretty bad hypothesis because the properties of the brass in a solid cylinder (cast?) are probably considerably different than the properties of sheet brass)

Something that hasn't been discussed much is material. How does copper sound when compared to brass of the same thickness? (Copper is heavier, right?) I know that with my Kanstul flugel, it is rich, and dark, and very smooth, and it has a copper bell.

How much of how it sounds can be attributed to the copper?
Is copper any better, or just different?
Why is copper not used more for bells?

This is a great topic - keep it going!
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DCB1
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PostPosted: Mon May 09, 2005 11:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here something to read...
http://www.dallasmusic.org/schilke/Brass%20Clinic.html#Materials
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mcamilleri
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PostPosted: Mon May 09, 2005 12:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jason, there are several effects involved in 'weight'. If you change the 'weight' of a bell (keeping the same shape) you also alter many other things, like the overall stiffness of the bell wall, and the amount of damping. So really there are 2 or 3 effects rolled up into 'weight', and many others involved with bracing and the bell bead.

Jason, I agree with you that if you change the 'weight' of the horn without modifying damping and stiffness, changes would be near zero. In the real world, all get changed at once, and it is hard for the player to figure out what the cause is.

Also, most makers try to make a heavy horn that is rich in sound, and a lightweight horn that is bright. I suppose the 'feel' of the horn has a lot to do with how people expect it should play - minimising cognitive dissonance perhaps?

Jason, if you could make a superhorn out of moulded plastic with your special bracing for a few hundred bucks, you would put the big guys outa business. Trumpets must be one of the few instruments that are still made by such archaic construction processes. Trouble is, the Olds Pinto was the last trumpet with plastic structural parts - a whole lotta baggage left there...

Michael
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dcstep
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PostPosted: Mon May 09, 2005 5:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JasonHarrelson wrote:

Yes, The Yamaha line of horns is a perfect example. Measure the Xeno against the standard and heavy weight 6xxx series and you will find the same horns duplicated in various gauges. The Xeno has a very thick wall tubing compared to most other trumpets. This thicker wall carries the standing wave more efficiently resulting in better response and an increase in amplitude of the overtone series.


If this is indeed true, then it proves that the added mass changes the sound. Changing the amplitude of the overtone series is exactly what we perceive as different timbre and tone. Professor Moore is demonstrating this in a slightly different, more repeatable way by using only one horn.

Dave
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frankavisconti
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 04, 2020 11:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I happen to have just acquired a 70 ounce trumpet--in fact a Selmer Chorus that was majorly modded by Mr. Harrelson. It is silky to hold and the added stiffeners and bracing are exquisite. The sound is solid and the intonation is so dialed in it is like riding a Moto Guzzi with big tires in gyroscopic motion. It has a mesmerizing tone. Even with my copper bubble mute. Although it is a heavier horn to hold, the passage of air is much more efficient and do not feel like I'm overexerting. My wife, my collaborteur, heard the distinct richness immediately. Its not so much about the weight but the control of resonance. Thats my understanding so far.
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Bflatman
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 05, 2020 3:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Love the thread

My 2c

Most respondents consider just one or maybe a few elements in the mix.

Of course one light horn sounds bright and another heavy horn sounds dark and this proves that weight is important but a different dark horn sounds bright and a different light horn sounds dark and this all proves diddly.

Of course heavy caps make a horn dark and heavy caps do not

conical tubing makes a horn dark and it does not

Heavy bracing makes a horn dark and it does not

Strategic placing of braces makes a horn dark and it does not

Resonance of a horn makes it dark and it does not

Large bore size makes a horn dark and it does not

Fitting a leather valve protector makes a horn dark and .........

One day someone will realise that there are dozens of elements that all work together to produce the timbre of a horn.

did I forget to mention bell flare

did I not mention the material in the bell

Oh dear how foolish of me.

My opinion is this

When you blow into a horn with a mouthpiece you will get out of the bell the natural timbre of the instrument

This natural timbre is the result of a couple of dozen design constraints imposed on the horn builder such as the weight, the bore size, the bell flare, etc

Focusing on one element of design and construction alone and making sweeping statements based upon that one element is foolish in the extreme.

I have had a light girlfriend and I have had a heavy girlfriend, the light girlfriend was not as rich as the heavy one.

I have a suspicion that weight alone is an unreliable factor in predicting the richness in either trumpets or girlfriends.

Dont get me started on mothers
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_dcstep
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 05, 2020 6:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

frankavisconti wrote:
I happen to have just acquired a 70 ounce trumpet--in fact a Selmer Chorus that was majorly modded by Mr. Harrelson. It is silky to hold and the added stiffeners and bracing are exquisite. The sound is solid and the intonation is so dialed in it is like riding a Moto Guzzi with big tires in gyroscopic motion. It has a mesmerizing tone. Even with my copper bubble mute. Although it is a heavier horn to hold, the passage of air is much more efficient and do not feel like I'm overexerting. My wife, my collaborteur, heard the distinct richness immediately. Its not so much about the weight but the control of resonance. Thats my understanding so far.


My stock 80J had a high percentage of nickel in the bell, which, for me, made it more brilliant sounding than expected and hard for me to hear myself when playing in a group. I tended to play too loud with it and I had to consciously avoid over blowing. At the time I also had a TT, which I loved for its versatile sound, either brilliant or warm, where I could hear myself easily. The TT was warmer sounding than the Chorus.

All have been replaced by my 1960 Schilke B1, which resonates easily, with a gorgeous, vibrant, brilliant tone that easily carries in a large space, over an orchestra.

I think bell material, bell shape and leadpipe taper have more impact on sound than weight, in general. I do use a weighed cap on my third valve and don't think it changes the sound, but it definitely impacts the slotting, making it easier to control the horn. Versus many other trumpets, the Schilke B1s tend to have somewhat "slippery" slotting. That makes them responsive, but requires precision from the player.

Glad you're enjoying your Selmer. I've owned several over the years and all had wonderful tone and were a blast to play. Since I found my B1, I've had no other Bb trumpet. I've found my perfect trumpet.
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shofarguy
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 05, 2020 3:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tough to read all of these posts.

I agree with Jason Harrelson on the following account:

Weighted caps of various shapes and mass do not produce predictable results in sound variation, in my experience, and not even the same pattern of results when tried on two different models of horn. I refer to the work I did with Flip Oakes when he asked me to write website copy for his accessory valve cap system.

We tried three different bottom cap weights with and without top caps & stems, with and without O-rings (that's 12 combinations) and with all 8 types of tuning slide he offered. With the standard caps and 8 slides, that makes for a total of 104 combinations on a Wild Thing. We did the same combinations with the Celebration. I listened out in the sanctuary, walked from side to side to hear the projection patterns and listened at a consistent variety of distances. I recorded the results on a spread sheet and later wrote what was published on FlipOakes.com.

Not only were the results unpredictable, but they were quite surprising. Later, I compared the effects of Flip's weighted caps with Kanstul's, which were similar weight, but different shape. They gave different results.

How the weight affected the response and slotting was consistent in that more weight meant more secure slotting, all things being equal. It also meant less spread to the projection pattern and more dense energy within that pattern.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 05, 2020 6:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JasonHarrelson wrote:

The term "weight" is inappropriate and very confusing. Why does everyone have this strange assumption???


So given same configuration, same design, what would additional weight do if applied to the following parts of a trumpet.
1. Heaver brass in the body and tubing
2. Heavier or lighter metal in the bell
3. Heavier braces
4. Additional metal added curves (like Monette and I believe some of your horns Jason)

In my own experience, very light horns I have played (like the Yamaha Eric Miyashiro) sound tinny to me. I don't like playing them. Most of the heavy horns I have played feel stuffy to me. The former I equated with thinness of the metal, particularly the bell. The latter I just figured was design of the horns since many heavier horns I have tried are designed to be like Bachs. So I am really curious as to what changing the amount of metal (which would equate to changing the weight) in various places would do.

I understand that a trumpet is a whole design, so a light trumpet could be designed with open characteristics and so could a heavy one. The could also be designed to be tighter. But here I am asking about isolation of this characteristic, other things being equal.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 05, 2020 8:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Horns, and their playability are totally subjective issues. People prefer different attributes for different reasons. I'll share mine.

I do not like to play heavy instruments. For me, a heavy instrument is just too much work to play I mean that literally -- these kinds of instruments exhaust me, making it difficult to play with the sound, flexibility, range, and stamina that I need. In my experience talking to players who prefer these kind of horns they a) don't have my issues with them and b) gain a stability with the weight of the instrument. This stability helps them to play accurately and with the tone that they are seeking and doesn't seem to 'cost' them in the ways that it does me.
I prefer a lighter horn. I spent most of my career playing Benge horns. They are light and really respond for me. As I've stated in other articles here, I have never found a Bach trumpet that I felt comfortable playing. There may be one out there with a set of attributes that would work for me, but in 55 years of playing I've never found one. Not a knock on Bach horns, but the big problem for me, that every one I've ever played has just felt HEAVY to me.
As I said at the beginning this isssue (as with most trumpet issues) is TOTALLY subjective.

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shofarguy
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 07, 2020 5:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

cgaiii wrote:
JasonHarrelson wrote:

The term "weight" is inappropriate and very confusing. Why does everyone have this strange assumption???


So given same configuration, same design, what would additional weight do if applied to the following parts of a trumpet.
1. Heaver brass in the body and tubing
2. Heavier or lighter metal in the bell
3. Heavier braces
4. Additional metal added curves (like Monette and I believe some of your horns Jason)

In my own experience, very light horns I have played (like the Yamaha Eric Miyashiro) sound tinny to me. I don't like playing them. Most of the heavy horns I have played feel stuffy to me. The former I equated with thinness of the metal, particularly the bell. The latter I just figured was design of the horns since many heavier horns I have tried are designed to be like Bachs. So I am really curious as to what changing the amount of metal (which would equate to changing the weight) in various places would do.

I understand that a trumpet is a whole design, so a light trumpet could be designed with open characteristics and so could a heavy one. The could also be designed to be tighter. But here I am asking about isolation of this characteristic, other things being equal.


The closest I've come to comparing like instruments with different weight bells would be a Benge 6X and 6XCG. They weren't exactly the same and I didn't play them side-by-side, but I think it's fair to point out one thing that was pretty identifiable.

The 6X was stable at any dynamic level. The CG would shift around at high dynamics. In other words, the ultra-lightweight material seemed unable to hold the sound together like the standard Benge weight of the 6X bell. Also, over the years, people have commented on the "transparency" of the Benge sound. I think that this is attributable to the thickness of the brass sheet used to form the Benge bells, versus other brands. It's been my experience that Olds horns, in particular, are made with much thicker material. some Bach and Holton horns are also. Even older Getzen horns seem to be less light.

Coming from a Benge player's perspective, these horns sound heavy and stodgy to me. I think the favored term is "Dark." One of the reasons I've gotten along with Kanstul horns, over the years, is that Zig used the same weight standard for his horns that Benge used. That was .020" yellow brass sheet stock. I believe I've read that Bach, for instance, uses .023" sheet. It makes a difference.
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