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Ben Lance
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 24, 2020 7:17 am    Post subject: How to progress Reply with quote

Hello, I'm a high school trumpet player and I'm very confused on what I should be doing to progress. Ive been doing some heavy research on trumpet methods and there is so much to choose from, most different method books literally teach the opposite things and everything is so contradictory. Right now I'm in a very bad spot playing wise, I cant do lip slurs at any tempo without missing notes, my endurance is terrible even though I play a lot, I've been playing for around 5 years and I can only reach a Bb above the staff reliably, basically, every part of my playing inst working right now. I'm just not sure what to do because no matter what I try to do there is another method book telling me I'm doing the wrong thing. If I had a solid path of what I need to do to be good I would put in multiple hours, but it seems like everything I do has no results.
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kehaulani
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 24, 2020 7:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

At your level of experience, I would just pick a mainstream book and go with that. There's plenty of time to get into specific, but out of the mainstream, systems. MOR books are:

Papa (Harold Mitchell's) Mtchell on Trumpet.
Rubank. series
Claude Gordon's, Systemic Approach..

There are others which might be recommended. The main point being, pick one conventional method and stick with it.

Are you self taught?
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Dayton
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 24, 2020 7:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can understand why you'd be frustrated. Are you studying with a teacher (or were you before COVID-19)? Working with a teacher is the best way for you to figure out what is wrong and develop a clear path forward.

You are right that there is some contradictory information out there, but don't worry too much about it. Just find an approach that you and your teacher think makes sense for you and stick with it. Teachers like Bill Adam, Carmine Caruso, Claude Gordon, Doc Reinhardt, Jimmy Stamp...had (somewhat) different approaches, but each helped many trumpet players become top professionals. There isn't just one path to success, though some approaches may work better for an individual player than others.

If it is not possible for you to work with a teacher, Harold "Pappy" Mitchell's "Mitchell on Trumpet" is an outstanding comprehensive method to practice from, but intelligently/diligently practicing good material will only get you so far if there is a fundamental problem that needs to be fixed -- and it sounds like there probably is. That's where a teacher is invaluable.

Good luck!
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cheiden
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 24, 2020 8:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Problems like those described almost always stem from lack of a good daily routine. And in case you're thinking it, no, a lot of ensemble playing is no substitute for a daily routine. If you don't have a good daily routine then you should really consider hooking up with a pro-level teacher for at least as much time as it takes to customize a daily routine and to show you how to implement it.
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Ben Lance
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 24, 2020 8:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

cheiden wrote:
Problems like those described almost always stem from lack of a good daily routine. And in case you're thinking it, no, a lot of ensemble playing is no substitute for a daily routine. If you don't have a good daily routine then you should really consider hooking up with a pro-level teacher for at least as much time as it takes to customize a daily routine and to show you how to implement it.


I usually practice every day, warming up, doing lip slurs, and long tones.
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Ben Lance
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Joined: 23 Jun 2020
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 24, 2020 8:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dayton wrote:
I can understand why you'd be frustrated. Are you studying with a teacher (or were you before COVID-19)? Working with a teacher is the best way for you to figure out what is wrong and develop a clear path forward.

You are right that there is some contradictory information out there, but don't worry too much about it. Just find an approach that you and your teacher think makes sense for you and stick with it. Teachers like Bill Adam, Carmine Caruso, Claude Gordon, Doc Reinhardt, Jimmy Stamp...had (somewhat) different approaches, but each helped many trumpet players become top professionals. There isn't just one path to success, though some approaches may work better for an individual player than others.

If it is not possible for you to work with a teacher, Harold "Pappy" Mitchell's "Mitchell on Trumpet" is an outstanding comprehensive method to practice from, but intelligently/diligently practicing good material will only get you so far if there is a fundamental problem that needs to be fixed -- and it sounds like there probably is. That's where a teacher is invaluable.

Good luck!


Yes, I was studying with a teacher for around a year before It had to stop due to covid. I will check out Harolds material.
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Ben Lance
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Joined: 23 Jun 2020
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 24, 2020 8:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kehaulani wrote:
At your level of experience, I would just pick a mainstream book and go with that. There's plenty of time to get into specific, but out of the mainstream, systems. MOR books are:

Papa (Harold Mitchell's) Mtchell on Trumpet.
Rubank. series
Claude Gordon's, Systemic Approach..

There are others which might be recommended. The main point being, pick one conventional method and stick with it.

Are you self taught?


I've been with a teacher for around a year now but I feel I haven't made much progress, I will definitely check out the methods you mentioned.
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JayKosta
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 24, 2020 9:07 am    Post subject: Re: How to progress Reply with quote

Ben Lance wrote:
... I cant do lip slurs at any tempo without missing notes, my endurance is terrible even though I play a lot, I've been playing for around 5 years and I can only reach a Bb above the staff reliably, basically, every part of my playing inst working right now. I'm just not sure what to do because no matter what I try to do there is another method book telling me I'm doing the wrong thing. ...

---------------------------------------
From your description, it seems that your basic 'method of playing' has some deficiencies for YOU. It might be that you need a 'method' that is specific to your physiology, or perhaps a 'standard method' would work well and you are not doing it properly.

Some basic questions about how you play -
How do you manipulate your lips (central area and corners) when playing above the staff?
Do you consciously use any tongue movement when changing pitches?
Do you do anything to control and distribute mouthpiece pressure on the bottom lip, as well as on the upper lip?
Do you experience lip pain or injury?

Jay
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Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'.
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Ben Lance
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 24, 2020 11:48 am    Post subject: Re: How to progress Reply with quote

JayKosta wrote:
Ben Lance wrote:
... I cant do lip slurs at any tempo without missing notes, my endurance is terrible even though I play a lot, I've been playing for around 5 years and I can only reach a Bb above the staff reliably, basically, every part of my playing inst working right now. I'm just not sure what to do because no matter what I try to do there is another method book telling me I'm doing the wrong thing. ...

---------------------------------------
From your description, it seems that your basic 'method of playing' has some deficiencies for YOU. It might be that you need a 'method' that is specific to your physiology, or perhaps a 'standard method' would work well and you are not doing it properly.

Some basic questions about how you play -
How do you manipulate your lips (central area and corners) when playing above the staff?
Do you consciously use any tongue movement when changing pitches?
Do you do anything to control and distribute mouthpiece pressure on the bottom lip, as well as on the upper lip?
Do you experience lip pain or injury?

Jay


When ascending I usually try to have a higher tongue arch, strengthen corners more, not smile, and just blow harder, I'm not really sure what I should be doing though, all I know is that I have to be relaxed and not have tension, but that seems like it is impossible because my lips and throat always are tense when I ascend no matter how much I consciously think about it.
I try to implement the tongue arch method because my teacher taught it to me.
I try to have both lips equally in the mouthpiece, but I think I generally have more upper lip in the mouthpiece than bottom lip.
And yes sometimes the day after playing a small part of my lip hurts, specifically the lip tissue in front of my bottom teeth In my mouth.

I would also like to add that I just tried using a mostly bottom lip setup, and my tone sounded more open, but as a downside my range decreased like four notes, I can hit around a high C today with my normal setup, but with the bottom lip setup I only can get around a G.
Also, with both setups, my tone gets thinner as I ascend, Ive tried minimizing pressure and changing nothing but the airspeed and still no matter what as I go higher I sound more brittle or thin.
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cheiden
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Joined: 28 Sep 2004
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 24, 2020 1:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ben Lance wrote:
cheiden wrote:
Problems like those described almost always stem from lack of a good daily routine. And in case you're thinking it, no, a lot of ensemble playing is no substitute for a daily routine. If you don't have a good daily routine then you should really consider hooking up with a pro-level teacher for at least as much time as it takes to customize a daily routine and to show you how to implement it.


I usually practice every day, warming up, doing lip slurs, and long tones.

It's possible to do all those things without it constituting a good daily routine.

I'm curious that in a later post you mention a teacher yet you don't mention their take on what you're dealing with. And it also seems that you're experimenting with big changes with tongue position and lip placement. Again I'd think a private teacher would have a lot to say about those things.
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"I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Benge 1X C/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart
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JayKosta
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Joined: 24 Dec 2018
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 24, 2020 2:42 pm    Post subject: Re: How to progress Reply with quote

Ben Lance wrote:
...
I try to implement the tongue arch method because my teacher taught it to me.
I try to have both lips equally in the mouthpiece, but I think I generally have more upper lip in the mouthpiece than bottom lip.
And yes sometimes the day after playing a small part of my lip hurts, specifically the lip tissue in front of my bottom teeth In my mouth. ...

-------------------------------------------------
When using tongue arch for higher notes, can you feel the muscle effort from arching your tongue 'pulling' on you lip muscles and jaw position? Talk with your teacher about how much the tongue arch method should affect the overall embouchure.
It seems unusual that you sometimes have lip pain on the lower lip, perhaps some other reader who has had that experience will comment.

Jay
_________________
Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'.
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Ben Lance
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 24, 2020 5:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cheiden wrote:
Ben Lance wrote:
cheiden wrote:
Problems like those described almost always stem from lack of a good daily routine. And in case you're thinking it, no, a lot of ensemble playing is no substitute for a daily routine. If you don't have a good daily routine then you should really consider hooking up with a pro-level teacher for at least as much time as it takes to customize a daily routine and to show you how to implement it.


I usually practice every day, warming up, doing lip slurs, and long tones.

It's possible to do all those things without it constituting a good daily routine.

I'm curious that in a later post you mention a teacher yet you don't mention their take on what you're dealing with. And it also seems that you're experimenting with big changes with tongue position and lip placement. Again I'd think a private teacher would have a lot to say about those things.


I used to take lessons, but sadly I had to temporary stop because of Covid, so I'm on my own. Im trying to do big changes because I believe my embouchure setup right now i'snt working, im just not sure what setups I should be trying.
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Ben Lance
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 24, 2020 6:04 pm    Post subject: Re: How to progress Reply with quote

JayKosta wrote:
Ben Lance wrote:
...
I try to implement the tongue arch method because my teacher taught it to me.
I try to have both lips equally in the mouthpiece, but I think I generally have more upper lip in the mouthpiece than bottom lip.
And yes sometimes the day after playing a small part of my lip hurts, specifically the lip tissue in front of my bottom teeth In my mouth. ...

-------------------------------------------------
When using tongue arch for higher notes, can you feel the muscle effort from arching your tongue 'pulling' on you lip muscles and jaw position? Talk with your teacher about how much the tongue arch method should affect the overall embouchure.
It seems unusual that you sometimes have lip pain on the lower lip, perhaps some other reader who has had that experience will comment.


I don't really feel like when I tongue arch, my embouchure is "pulled" in any direction, I mostly don't even use it consciously because I can mostly do it without thinking.
Jay
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Andy Del
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 25, 2020 3:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

From what has been said by the OP, I don’t think it’s the books that need focus on, but rather production. That’s going to need a good teacher

All my private studio moved to online lessons with few problems. The main thing to remember when teaching online is that communication takes longer than in person. It calls for patience and a degree of civility that exceeds would normally exercise in person.

My advice to the OP, get online with your teacher. If they can’t or won’t, find someone who will.

Cheers

Andy
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pepperdean
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 25, 2020 9:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ben, we don't have any information on what your teacher has advised. However, if you have studied for a year with this person and failed to progress, you may need to look elsewhere. You need to have complete confidence in your teacher so you can commit to following their advice with abandon.

Have you heard of paralysis by analysis? Your comments about what you try to do while playing lead me to believe you might just suffer that malady. Letting go and just playing a daily regimen that fits your needs would give you a boost. A good teacher will provide that regimen for you. That daily work should bring your chops into balance gradually, allowing you to just keep playing and getting better as you go along.

Be sure you don't expect instant success. Go for improvement. We all fall victim to impatience but progress is made one step at a time.

I believe you need guidance. If you've lost confidence in your teacher, look for a teacher online. This doesn't have to fit the regular, weekly series of lessons you might be used to. It could simply be a one time consultation that would set you in the right direction and prescribe a plan for you to follow.

Best wishes,
Alan
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lakejw
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 25, 2020 10:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Trumpet is a very difficult instrument to play. The only thing harder than playing the trumpet is learning how to play! Building strength, then backing off. Developing tone, keeping your embouchure in tact. It's a million things and they all get better individually to make up the whole. Not unlike a golf swing, for example.

These things take time. LOTS of time. When it feels like you're banging your head against the wall, and nothing is working right, you may need some mental space. Put down the method books and maybe even take a few days off from the horn. Find the joy in playing again.

Find a competent, reputable teacher that can show you ways to work towards your goals. If you're in Florida I might have some recommendations for you. But know that no one can teach you how to play trumpet - you have to figure that out for yourself.

There's a saying in cycling; "It never gets easier, you just get faster." It doesn't take much imagination to apply that logic to what we're doing.
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Brad361
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2020 3:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ben Lance wrote:
cheiden wrote:
Ben Lance wrote:
cheiden wrote:
Problems like those described almost always stem from lack of a good daily routine. And in case you're thinking it, no, a lot of ensemble playing is no substitute for a daily routine. If you don't have a good daily routine then you should really consider hooking up with a pro-level teacher for at least as much time as it takes to customize a daily routine and to show you how to implement it.


I usually practice every day, warming up, doing lip slurs, and long tones.

It's possible to do all those things without it constituting a good daily routine.

I'm curious that in a later post you mention a teacher yet you don't mention their take on what you're dealing with. And it also seems that you're experimenting with big changes with tongue position and lip placement. Again I'd think a private teacher would have a lot to say about those things.


I used to take lessons, but sadly I had to temporary stop because of Covid, so I'm on my own. Im trying to do big changes because I believe my embouchure setup right now i'snt working, im just not sure what setups I should be trying.


Covid is most definitely creating chaos almost everywhere in society, but it absolutely doesn’t mean that private lessons are impossible. I teach lessons virtually, and while it’s not ideal, it’s an alternative to going it alone.

Without some guidance, you could research method books forever and not figure out what the problem is.

Brad
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Bachatit
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 15, 2020 1:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Ben,

I concur with the advice hitherto given.

Your frustrations are the same as countless other trumpet players. We may be at different levels (higher or lower) but all progressing toward the unattainable goal of "perfection".

You are absolutely correct: there are contradicting opinions out there. My suggestion is to focus on what the vast majority of great players teach and agree on. An example might be mouthpiece buzzing. Most professionals advocate (limited) time buzzing the mouthpiece. I would view with skepticism opinions that are not held by the majority of players of the highest standard.

Regarding method books, I would recommend the standard: Arban, Clarke Technical Studies, Schlossberg. Again, most great trumpet players use have used and continue to rely on these.

Regarding defects in playing (and we all have them!), I recommend slow methodical practice on the easiest exercises, not expecting too much to soon. You mention slurring: start with small intervals (Clarke exercise #1) and then expand (Clarke #2 then #3). Another example might be slurring the First Studies in Arban (#9, #10) SLOWLY.

Regardless of the problem, if what you are doing is not working despite concerted effort, you must try something else until you find what works. A teacher is helpful.

Best
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dlouiek1
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 03, 2020 2:40 pm    Post subject: How to progress Reply with quote

It seems that in regards to the methods mentioned, the Arban's conservatory method for trumpet may be one to consider. Regardless of the method, it is my guess that you are getting a lot of fatique when you say that you are practicing a lot. Rest as much as you play. It is important to take a
the horn off the lips to get the blood to flow.
Whenever there is a problem with my playing, usually it is related to the air flow. Try to play a phrase with a slur, then articulate it using the same amount of air.
Also, is your pinky in the right hand resting on top of the finger hook or is it in the insert. Often, trumpet players push the horn into the lips with their pinky.
Too much mouthpiece pressure. Good Luck. Dan T. Trumpet teacher.
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