• FAQ  • Search  • Memberlist  • Usergroups   • Register   • Profile  • Log in to check your private messages  • Log in 

Oh really good news!



 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    trumpetherald.com Forum Index -> High Range Development
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Lionel
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 25 Jul 2016
Posts: 676

PostPosted: Wed Jun 17, 2020 8:32 pm    Post subject: Oh really good news! Reply with quote

Try and keep it short. Promise!

Entering my seventh month of a complete embouchure change to the Stevens-Costello system albeit with at least one change adaptation or caveat.

Finally getting some serious volume to my upper register! I can still play them soft as a lark's song. And on a good day extend my range on up to G above Double C. The range itself is also increasing splendidly too. But doggone its great to finally get my power back on the High Gs. Especially since I'm not half killing myself just to get that G. And unlike my old embouchure there's no cut-off point at that note.

Shoot man! I had a high G cut-off point for close to 49 years! To finally break through such a serious fault is no small personal miracle.
_________________
"Check me if I'm wrong Sandy but if I kill all the golfers they're gonna lock me up & throw away the key"!

Carl Spackler (aka Bill Murray, 1980).
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Seymor B Fudd
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 17 Oct 2015
Posts: 982
Location: Sweden

PostPosted: Thu Jun 18, 2020 4:47 am    Post subject: Re: Oh really good news! Reply with quote

Lionel wrote:
Try and keep it short. Promise!

Entering my seventh month of a complete embouchure change to the Stevens-Costello system albeit with at least one change adaptation or caveat.

Finally getting some serious volume to my upper register! I can still play them soft as a lark's song. And on a good day extend my range on up to G above Double C. The range itself is also increasing splendidly too. But doggone its great to finally get my power back on the High Gs. Especially since I'm not half killing myself just to get that G. And unlike my old embouchure there's no cut-off point at that note.

Shoot man! I had a high G cut-off point for close to 49 years! To finally break through such a serious fault is no small personal miracle.



Congrats Lionel! You are a stubborn son of a...witch ´cause this seems to be a miracle! Such perseverance, true Grit..., tenacity!!!
Keep pushing! The sky is the limit (or used to be).
How did you do it??
_________________
Cornets:
Getzen Custom Series Schilke 143D3/ DW Ultra 1,5 C
Getzen 300 series
Yamaha YCRD2330II
Getzen Eterna Eb /M V 1 1/2 C/Schilke 14B
Trumpets:
Yamaha 6335 RC Schilke 14B
King Super 20 Symphony DB (1970)
Selmer Eb/D trumpet (1973) Selmer 2 D
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Lionel
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 25 Jul 2016
Posts: 676

PostPosted: Thu Jun 18, 2020 2:14 pm    Post subject: Re: Oh really good news! Reply with quote

Seymor B Fudd wrote:
Lionel wrote:
Try and keep it short. Promise!

Entering my seventh month of a complete embouchure change to the Stevens-Costello system albeit with at least one change adaptation or caveat.

Finally getting some serious volume to my upper register! I can still play them soft as a lark's song. And on a good day extend my range on up to G above Double C. The range itself is also increasing splendidly too. But doggone its great to finally get my power back on the High Gs. Especially since I'm not half killing myself just to get that G. And unlike my old embouchure there's no cut-off point at that note.

Shoot man! I had a high G cut-off point for close to 49 years! To finally break through such a serious fault is no small personal miracle.



Congrats Lionel! You are a stubborn son of a...witch ´cause this seems to be a miracle! Such perseverance, true Grit..., tenacity!!!
Keep pushing! The sky is the limit (or used to be).
How did you do it??


The Stevens-Costello system has always impressed me because it details the physical laws that apply to sound production (or lack thereof) on the trumpet. It also correctly identifies range limitations as being the "greatest difficulty in playing the instrument". Last paragraph, pg 44 2nd edition published 2005.

Who else says these obvious statements? None that I know of during my 65 years on the planet. So right here the system impresses me. And even though my first couple of attempts to apply the system (prior to my apparently successful one at present) were failures they werent complete failures. So instead of blaming Roy Stevens I asked myself two questions,

A. Is there something I'm doing wrong? And,

B. Is there something Stevens was missing?

And it turned out to be "B". I was doing it right. But just needed a mouthpiece with an inner rim dimension considerably larger than stock pieces. After designing a mouthpiece more suitable for my chops? The Stevens system has begun to fit me like a glove.

There will always be a certain amount of criticism of the Stevens system. Sometimes very caustic and irrational criticism.
(continued)

Roy Stevens endured way too much criticism during his day. Granted that his system wasn't perfect. After all even while I'm among Roy's biggest supporters his system did not allow for the peculiarities of my own physiology. But I don't blame Roy. He was a giant.

All throughout science and physics we have seen great minds make mistakes. Usually small ones. You've heard the saying,

"We stand on the shoulders of giants"

But like I said both Roy and his system will likely continue being dissed and go on being dismissed. Often by people who really ought to know better. And there's a reason for this. You see even with the most powerful system available to his students the Stevens method isn't exactly an easy one. This is because learning high notes or a 4 and a half octave range (NOT inc pedals!) is hardly ever "easy" for anyone..

Its much easier to teach a beginner to play a bunch of blatty low tones on a flabby, uncoordinated embouchure. And while the kid's progress at learning these lower tones may not be quite as quick as say a beginning tenor sax player learns? The low tone learning beginning trumpet player is at least about on par with his reed playing peer. As such the beginning trumpet player who learns the lower register first won't hold back the rest of the band so much.

Well? Not until he reaches high school of college and finds that there's a thing called the "upper register" and that he doesn't have one. This because his embouchure, except in rare cases isn't well rigged for it. Indeed his band director, whether knowingly or not is playing a numbers game. A few of the more motivated trumpet players will learn to blow close to a high C by the high school years. Even fewer will blow higher than this. Then much fewer will play solid Double C's well connected to their lower register.

So we can easily infer that even if the Stevens System was to gain wider acceptance a lot of band directors would still refuse to accept it. Simply because the Stevens student is only working on perfecting the embouchure. And even over the course of his first year and despite being able to execute 4 octave arpeggios (such as I'm doing at only seven months in!) the kid might still be advised to continue more with his exercises INSTEAD of joining band class.

You see there's a danger in putting a kid who's learning to play four to five octaves into an elementary school band stuck in between a register of Low C to the tuning note. He's likely to drop his jaw and let all that soft inner lip flesh blat out those resonant low tones his director seeks. Then you add the director's insistence on the performance of distinctive and loud attacks? Well this is probably gonna destroy his fledgling 5 octave range.

A far better condition would be to keep all the serious and motivated beginning trumpet players isolated from the rest of the band. Intil their chops "lock in" solidly. Then send them back in the band.

As the easiest notes to learn on the trumpet are in the middle register. I've always said, "Any fool can learn low notes on the trumpet". So at least for the near future the Stevens system is probably going to fall only into the domain of the serious trumpet players who had already been wasting his time playing on a limited embouchure. Just like I did. Hell just LIKE ALL OF US. It's too bad that we can't introduce him to this method early on. Well before he spends so many years playing incorrectly.

This however is just the way that the status quo is oriented today.
_________________
"Check me if I'm wrong Sandy but if I kill all the golfers they're gonna lock me up & throw away the key"!

Carl Spackler (aka Bill Murray, 1980).
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Seymor B Fudd
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 17 Oct 2015
Posts: 982
Location: Sweden

PostPosted: Sun Jun 21, 2020 3:03 am    Post subject: Re: Oh really good news! Reply with quote

Lionel wrote:
Seymor B Fudd wrote:
Lionel wrote:
Try and keep it short. Promise!

Entering my seventh month of a complete embouchure change to the Stevens-Costello system albeit with at least one change adaptation or caveat.

Finally getting some serious volume to my upper register! I can still play them soft as a lark's song. And on a good day extend my range on up to G above Double C. The range itself is also increasing splendidly too. But doggone its great to finally get my power back on the High Gs. Especially since I'm not half killing myself just to get that G. And unlike my old embouchure there's no cut-off point at that note.

Shoot man! I had a high G cut-off point for close to 49 years! To finally break through such a serious fault is no small personal miracle.



Congrats Lionel! You are a stubborn son of a...witch ´cause this seems to be a miracle! Such perseverance, true Grit..., tenacity!!!
Keep pushing! The sky is the limit (or used to be).
How did you do it??


The Stevens-Costello system has always impressed me because it details the physical laws that apply to sound production (or lack thereof) on the trumpet. It also correctly identifies range limitations as being the "greatest difficulty in playing the instrument". Last paragraph, pg 44 2nd edition published 2005.

Who else says these obvious statements? None that I know of during my 65 years on the planet. So right here the system impresses me. And even though my first couple of attempts to apply the system (prior to my apparently successful one at present) were failures they werent complete failures. So instead of blaming Roy Stevens I asked myself two questions,

A. Is there something I'm doing wrong? And,

B. Is there something Stevens was missing?

And it turned out to be "B". I was doing it right. But just needed a mouthpiece with an inner rim dimension considerably larger than stock pieces. After designing a mouthpiece more suitable for my chops? The Stevens system has begun to fit me like a glove.

There will always be a certain amount of criticism of the Stevens system. Sometimes very caustic and irrational criticism.
(continued)

Roy Stevens endured way too much criticism during his day. Granted that his system wasn't perfect. After all even while I'm among Roy's biggest supporters his system did not allow for the peculiarities of my own physiology. But I don't blame Roy. He was a giant.

All throughout science and physics we have seen great minds make mistakes. Usually small ones. You've heard the saying,

"We stand on the shoulders of giants"

But like I said both Roy and his system will likely continue being dissed and go on being dismissed. Often by people who really ought to know better. And there's a reason for this. You see even with the most powerful system available to his students the Stevens method isn't exactly an easy one. This is because learning high notes or a 4 and a half octave range (NOT inc pedals!) is hardly ever "easy" for anyone..

Its much easier to teach a beginner to play a bunch of blatty low tones on a flabby, uncoordinated embouchure. And while the kid's progress at learning these lower tones may not be quite as quick as say a beginning tenor sax player learns? The low tone learning beginning trumpet player is at least about on par with his reed playing peer. As such the beginning trumpet player who learns the lower register first won't hold back the rest of the band so much.

Well? Not until he reaches high school of college and finds that there's a thing called the "upper register" and that he doesn't have one. This because his embouchure, except in rare cases isn't well rigged for it. Indeed his band director, whether knowingly or not is playing a numbers game. A few of the more motivated trumpet players will learn to blow close to a high C by the high school years. Even fewer will blow higher than this. Then much fewer will play solid Double C's well connected to their lower register.

So we can easily infer that even if the Stevens System was to gain wider acceptance a lot of band directors would still refuse to accept it. Simply because the Stevens student is only working on perfecting the embouchure. And even over the course of his first year and despite being able to execute 4 octave arpeggios (such as I'm doing at only seven months in!) the kid might still be advised to continue more with his exercises INSTEAD of joining band class.

You see there's a danger in putting a kid who's learning to play four to five octaves into an elementary school band stuck in between a register of Low C to the tuning note. He's likely to drop his jaw and let all that soft inner lip flesh blat out those resonant low tones his director seeks. Then you add the director's insistence on the performance of distinctive and loud attacks? Well this is probably gonna destroy his fledgling 5 octave range.

A far better condition would be to keep all the serious and motivated beginning trumpet players isolated from the rest of the band. Intil their chops "lock in" solidly. Then send them back in the band.

As the easiest notes to learn on the trumpet are in the middle register. I've always said, "Any fool can learn low notes on the trumpet". So at least for the near future the Stevens system is probably going to fall only into the domain of the serious trumpet players who had already been wasting his time playing on a limited embouchure. Just like I did. Hell just LIKE ALL OF US. It's too bad that we can't introduce him to this method early on. Well before he spends so many years playing incorrectly.

This however is just the way that the status quo is oriented today.



Dear Lionel! You write "Try and keep it short. Promise!" Please forgive me - I know you want to be helpful - but I just can´t figure out how you did it in spite of your elaboration! Reading between the lines I think I find at least two hints: 1)wider inner rim on mouthpiece 2)kinda tightening your lips (=not dropping jaw). But that´s all.
I´m completely un-familiar with the Stevens Costello system, hence my curiosity.
Once I tried a Schilke 15A4 only to find that my chops suddenly died (in the middle of a concert....). Flatter and broader rim than usual. But not for me.
I understand that stretching the lips is one way of producing sounds, tightening them mandatory for high register (="shrinking" the aperture).
The essence of the Stevens-Costello system is said to be non-pressure which in my view is not possible. Minimum pressure - that I can buy and live with. As I recall you suffered a dental breakdown, sort of, and after that you have trained your lips in a special way? How?? I´m curious!
Always looking for the holy Grail. (or Grails, I´ve found one, the BE )
_________________
Cornets:
Getzen Custom Series Schilke 143D3/ DW Ultra 1,5 C
Getzen 300 series
Yamaha YCRD2330II
Getzen Eterna Eb /M V 1 1/2 C/Schilke 14B
Trumpets:
Yamaha 6335 RC Schilke 14B
King Super 20 Symphony DB (1970)
Selmer Eb/D trumpet (1973) Selmer 2 D
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Lionel
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 25 Jul 2016
Posts: 676

PostPosted: Mon Jun 22, 2020 5:19 pm    Post subject: Re: Oh really good news! Reply with quote

Seymour,
Glad you wrote again my friend. Hey I just had a revelation after reading your response. It's an idea related to something I've learned by teaching the Stevens System to my student "Stan"

He wasn't catching on to the process. So I tried to recall what I did to DEFINE the exact spot in my chops that was producing the easiest and best high note squeakers. This is definitely not something included in Stevens but let me tell ya it's an eye opener.

First of all try and throw out or at least repress any objections you may already have against playing on dry lips. After all the number of really powerful and famous dry lip trumpet artists reads like a "Who's Who" of famous trumpets. So lets at least consider setting dry until our chops get strong enough to play above High G fluently . And then maybe start blowing wet. Most of Roy's students started dry. Just like Roy Roman. Later after Roman really got the thing down he started to play wet. This is because when playing under hot lighting or summertime parties the perspiration would wet his chops regardless. He'd need to carry that white handkerchief around all the time just like Satchmo did. I didn't want to dwell too much on the dry thing but even today it at least appears that Mark Zauss is playing dry. At least he seemed to be some 20 years ago at Disneyworld with Future Corps. Watch his impressive video carefully. He often dries those chops off with the cloth covering on the back of his right wrist. I don't know if he still does this but Mark certainly demonstrates the exact sound and unbelievable range of the Stevens System.

So! While standing in front of a mirror and with dry lips. Put a little air behind your upper & lower lips. Don't fill up your whole cheeks. Just hold a little air behind those two lips. Then trap this air by closing off the back of your mouth with the rear of your tongue. And again, KEEP THOSE LIPS FIRM! In order to hold the aur pockets behind the lips.

Now while holding these puffed air pockets pressurize them by pushing your tongue forward. Or just by bringing those air pockets in toward their natural position. If you keep your lips sealed very firm?

You ought to start hearing some high pitched squeals emanate from in between those firm, dry lips.

In "Balanced Embouchure" Smiley calles these "lip clamp squeaks". Although he uses these only as an exercise in learning the effectiveness of "Rolling-In". In my system or my amendment to the Stevens system I actually built my whole embouchure based off of these squeaks. And I call them,

"Air Pocket Squeaks".

Even a beginner can usually get these. Trumpet players of any real experience will produce them easily. Maybe even squeak some notes as High G in a free buzz!

Now while watching yourself in the mirror. LOOK FOR THE SPOT ON YOUR LIPS THAT TENDS TO PRODUCE THESE Air Pocket Squeaks THE EASIEST!!

Next: practice starting on a top space E natural but without the horn or mouthpiece. Start performing a free buzz like "do re mi" Or
E natural, F#, G#. Etc. But work carefully at keeping these squeaks coming out in the same and best place!!

Keep buzzing in front of the mirror. Always concentrating on defining that dime length area on your chops where the squeaks come out best. Since you're already a trumpet player I'll bet fifty bucks that within a month, maybe even just a week, you'll be able to take that E natural scale all the way up to E above High C!!! Without a mouthpiece or horn!! It's those dry lips + air pockets that make it so easy to sustain this upper register notes.

Okay you'll probably find that your air pockets will empty by the time you hit the third of the scale. The G# in other words. No problem! Just start using your lungs to support the highly rolled in formation.

Actually the amount of pressure that your mouth can generate exceeds the PSI that your lungs are able to develop.

Step 2: Soon as you're able to fluently squeak those rolled in APS's? Stick your mouthpiece and horn on that exact spot where you're getting the best and most consistent/controllable squeaks. That is your new dry lip embouchure formation. Again however BUY THE. STEVENS SYSTEM BOOK! And be sure to abide by all the described physical laws ESPECIALLY his "Two Aperture Theiry".

Seymour,

I'll answer the rest of your reply later. Just experiment with the above. Sorry that I don't have a video. The critical thing here is that the Air Pocket Squeaks" (let's abbreviate to "APS") really make it easy to produce a "Rolled-In" embouchure setting. Roy Stevens never explained this in much detail such as I've done. Or as I've tried tried to do. He basically just said,

"Roll your lips in against the airstream". Or words to that effect.. By applying. APS however virtually GUARANTEE that you'll start developing a rolled in chop setting. Once you've done this? Everything in the Stevens book starts to make sense.

So BUY THE BOOK my friend! It's only like $30 inc shipping. I bought two this year.

PS: a well regulated roll in embouchure should have no cut off points ir "squirrelly tones" in the upper register. Unlike "Downstream" or those puckered in/"rolled-OUT" chop settings. Check it out, I've only been playing this system seven months. However there us no note above a high C that I can't reach and sustain on pitch pretty much seamlessly. The usual sticking notes for high note players is either the Hugh A or A flat. Sometimes B flat below double C.

I Swear to God that there is no note in between High C and Double C that I cant "sit" on for less than 20 seconds. And often up to F/Double C. It won't slip up or down in pitch either. This because the roll IN doesn't clog up the mouthpiece like a pucker or Downstream chops do. And the bigger inside rim dimension on the mouthpiece helps open the tone up. Hey, I'm still learning my friend but its really working. I.mean REALLY working and for the first time in my life.

Hallelujah
_________________
"Check me if I'm wrong Sandy but if I kill all the golfers they're gonna lock me up & throw away the key"!

Carl Spackler (aka Bill Murray, 1980).
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Seymor B Fudd
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 17 Oct 2015
Posts: 982
Location: Sweden

PostPosted: Tue Jun 23, 2020 1:35 am    Post subject: Re: Oh really good news! Reply with quote

[quote="Lionel"]Seymour,
...........................................................................................................
Hallelujah!

Indeed! Thanks - now I understand. Turns out only one holy Grail after all: The mean old man look!
Resembling him more and more
Thankfully I have to practice a lot in order to make him appear. Not my default look.
I´ve carefully read your post and can only agree - the Roll Ins, the squeak, the APS - which I´ve practiced almost every day since I got in touch with the BE method. Two weeks ago I had arrived at the point where my old chops could play seemlessly F# below staff up to E above high C, gradually shifting from a trifle puckering lips to marked roll in about G top of staff. Also, first time since my glorious days of the seventies I could squeak up to high G. (Compressing not stretching). Good enough for me.I´ll experiment more with this along your (and mr Smileys) ideas.
Now my summer´s vacation has begun so I can´t practice that much. I´ll be back in August, hopefully the confounded COVID 19 has comitted suicide so as to make playing in bands OK again.
_________________
Cornets:
Getzen Custom Series Schilke 143D3/ DW Ultra 1,5 C
Getzen 300 series
Yamaha YCRD2330II
Getzen Eterna Eb /M V 1 1/2 C/Schilke 14B
Trumpets:
Yamaha 6335 RC Schilke 14B
King Super 20 Symphony DB (1970)
Selmer Eb/D trumpet (1973) Selmer 2 D


Last edited by Seymor B Fudd on Wed Jul 01, 2020 1:13 am; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Lionel
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 25 Jul 2016
Posts: 676

PostPosted: Thu Jun 25, 2020 10:33 pm    Post subject: Re: Oh really good news! Reply with quote

[quote="Seymor B Fudd"]
Lionel wrote:
Seymour,
...........................................................................................................
Hallelujah!

Indeed! Thanks - now I understand. Turns out only one holy Grail after all: The mean old man look!
Resembling him more and more
Thankfully I have to practice a lot in order to make him appear. Not my default look.
I´ve carefully read your post and can only agree - the Roll Ins, the squeak, the APS - which I´ve practiced almost every day since I got in touch with the BE method. Two weeks ago I had arrived at the point whyen my old chops could play seemlessly F# below staff up to E above high C, gradually shifting from a trifle puckering lips to marked roll in about G top of staff. Also, first time since my glorious days of the seventies I could squeak up to high G. (Compressing not stretching). Good enough for me.I´ll experiment more with this along your (and mr Smileys) ideas.
Now my summer´s vacation has begun so I can´t practice that much. I´ll be back in August, hopefully the confounded COVID 19 has comitted suicide so as to make playing in bands OK again.


Good work Seymor!
One fascinating experience I've observed in two unrelated trades or crafts, one music the other construction was when I observed a man in each trade arrive at the same unusual conclusion I did separately from him.

On Friday I'm going to teach my student Stan to place the mouthpiece over his lips in the exact spot where he gets his most profound air pocket squeaks. One way of doing this is to start the squeak on a free buzz action, then "Walk-In" to the piece. IOW set the mouthpiece over an existing buzzing condition.

The tone will usually drop immediately the first few times by the way. However the knowledge I gained by doing this was priceless. And then once in a while the tone does remain close to the free buzz. Bingo! Now you've really scored a bullseye.

"Walking-In" is a practice technique more common to lower brass players. Phil Wilson, jazz trombonist was noted for it. Used it in his solos too. The whole concept is possibly a Reinhardt thing but it's been years since I read his material. Too complicated! That and a number of his hard and fast rules were something that I broke every day that I picked up a trumpet. Reinhardt, after all was not a trumpet player. Roy Stevens was.

In Reinhardt's thinking a G above high C was enough for a trumpet player. And probably a lot of trumpet players might even agree. Especially those with range limitations at high C and to which the high G appears a miracle.

But not for me. It isn't just that a High G is not enough range for a modern lead player but the amount of energy that trumpet player uses up blowing the G on an inferior embouchure is staggering! I was good to high G before my Aug 2018 injury. However playing notes around that area would greatly fatigue me. Would bug my eyes out too! Often turning my whole white face bright, scarlet red.

Whereas on the Stevens system I'm hardly building up a sweat. The total energy required being about the same as lifting a medium sized dictionary. Like say a ten pound weight. Plus it can take a hugely long time to develop a High G on an incorrect embouchure setting and for what purpose? Ten years later and he's stuck at the G instead of high C. It taking him every last ounce of energy he has to play a melodic line around high G.

I hear people say, "I don't have the time to switch my embouchure over to anew method". And the Stevens system is definitely not a quick fix.

However isn't it better to completely rid ones self of all range limitations in between two to three years of time? Maybe even sooner depending upon the relative closeness that the embouchure is at the start of the change? Rather than refine a weak embouchure. Spending ten, twenty or more years. Doing pedals, isometrics, customizing mouthpieces etc. Trying to squeeze every last small advantage out of an embouchure which at it's peak of ability still falls almost two octaves short of the Stevens-Costello system?
_________________
"Check me if I'm wrong Sandy but if I kill all the golfers they're gonna lock me up & throw away the key"!

Carl Spackler (aka Bill Murray, 1980).
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
amboguzzi
Regular Member


Joined: 31 Mar 2020
Posts: 19
Location: Vermont

PostPosted: Fri Jun 26, 2020 4:10 am    Post subject: Mouthpiece Reply with quote

Hi Lionel,
I'm curious! What mouthpiece did you switch too? When I was studying with Roy in the 70's I was playing on a Bach 10 1/2C. It was the first and only mouthpiece I had ever played on, recommended by my teacher at the time. Roy gave me one of his mouthpieces. This is what I still play on. It does have a wider inside diameter, .654 inside diameter, somewhere around a Bach 2, but with a slightly wider rim, not as wide as the Bach W series rims. I would call it medium shallow in depth, maybe between a Bach C and D. You are correct. You need room to fit your rolled in chops inside the mouthpiece, let the musculature do the work and avoid pinning your lips together which I believe sometimes happens on a smaller mouthpiece.
Roy's system is not a quick fix. It takes time, patience and practice....lots of practice. Often the player's technique will deteriorate before it improves. With many players who are playing professionally and regularly, this could be a daunting task.
I strongly recommend that anyone that is interested in learning or understanding the "Stevens - Costello Triple C Method" purchase the book. The first 92 pages, in my original version, is dialogue of Roy explaining why his system works. It explains the do's and don'ts, the facial musculature, the science behind his method. If a player has the time and patience to learn this system, I believe he/she will be the better for it. I fully understand that some players have the ability to play in the upper register without adopting the Stevens method but I think that they naturally incorporate some of Roy's principles. If you can teach this method to beginning trumpet players, they will be way ahead in the embouchure game! Regards! Anthony[/img]
_________________
Anthony Memoli
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Lionel
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 25 Jul 2016
Posts: 676

PostPosted: Fri Jun 26, 2020 7:28 pm    Post subject: Re: Mouthpiece Reply with quote

amboguzzi wrote:
Hi Lionel,
I'm curious! What mouthpiece did you switch too? When I was studying with Roy in the 70's I was playing on a Bach 10 1/2C. It was the first and only mouthpiece I had ever played on, recommended by my teacher at the time. Roy gave me one of his mouthpieces. This is what I still play on. It does have a wider inside diameter, .654 inside diameter, somewhere around a Bach 2, but with a slightly wider rim, not as wide as the Bach W series rims. I would call it medium shallow in depth, maybe between a Bach C and D. You are correct. You need room to fit your rolled in chops inside the mouthpiece, let the musculature do the work and avoid pinning your lips together which I believe sometimes happens on a smaller mouthpiece.
Roy's system is not a quick fix. It takes time, patience and practice....lots of practice. Often the player's technique will deteriorate before it improves. With many players who are playing professionally and regularly, this could be a daunting task.
I strongly recommend that anyone that is interested in learning or understanding the "Stevens - Costello Triple C Method" purchase the book. The first 92 pages, in my original version, is dialogue of Roy explaining why his system works. It explains the do's and don'ts, the facial musculature, the science behind his method. If a player has the time and patience to learn this system, I believe he/she will be the better for it. I fully understand that some players have the ability to play in the upper register without adopting the Stevens method but I think that they naturally incorporate some of Roy's principles. If you can teach this method to beginning trumpet players, they will be way ahead in the embouchure game! Regards! Anthony[/img]


You're absolutely right. Hit the nail right on the head. No quick fixes. And yet my own progress has been near lightning fast. And like you said to which I concur,

"Buy the book"!!!

Amboguzzi,
I found a couple flaws in the Stevens system. Ones that I absolutely had to discover and fix. Yet once I got them straightened out I started developing like lightning. Following Stevens plan exactly as written other than my two discoveries. I'm even starting to articulate pretty well in the extreme upper register now!. That and my volume is getting bigger. Here are the two sticking points that I had to discover

1. I had to customize my mouthpiece. Built it myself in fact. Had to solder on a piece of brass that allowed the inner rim dimension to increase to around 0.750 inch. A nickel fits easily into my piece! Its a freakin HUGE piece man!!! In time I'll be certain to develop other mouthpiece specifics to help me even more but this one is pretty good for now.

2. I had to develop a dry lip, "Free Buzzing" technique in order to first play my statics. Then later as a way to finally get down into my middle register.

Out of necessity a beginner to Stevens usually would not be advised to spend much time in the lower register. As this only tends to encourage him to drop his jaw. The idea is to CONSTANTLY MAINTAIN THE CORRECT EMBOUCHURE. At all costs and regardless of the outcome. So long as the rules are followed?

The system should always work. The book states that "there is a treasure to be found here". He was absolutely correct.
_________________
"Check me if I'm wrong Sandy but if I kill all the golfers they're gonna lock me up & throw away the key"!

Carl Spackler (aka Bill Murray, 1980).
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
SteveDurand
Regular Member


Joined: 28 Dec 2015
Posts: 29
Location: Orange County, California

PostPosted: Sat Jun 27, 2020 9:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lionel,
The two items that you listed are not "flaws" of the system. They are your own personal quirks.

They are not universal to people who use the system.

I have been using this method for upper register playing for going on 6 years and I have found that, for me, it works better with a small diameter mouthpiece. I use the smallest that I could find, a Bach 20C.

And I have also played with this system on wet lips right from the start.

Steve
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Seymor B Fudd
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 17 Oct 2015
Posts: 982
Location: Sweden

PostPosted: Sun Jun 28, 2020 9:30 am    Post subject: Re: Mouthpiece Reply with quote

amboguzzi wrote:
Hi Lionel,
I'm curious! What mouthpiece did you switch too? When I was studying with Roy in the 70's I was playing on a Bach 10 1/2C. It was the first and only mouthpiece I had ever played on, recommended by my teacher at the time. Roy gave me one of his mouthpieces. This is what I still play on. It does have a wider inside diameter, .654 inside diameter, somewhere around a Bach 2, but with a slightly wider rim, not as wide as the Bach W series rims. I would call it medium shallow in depth, maybe between a Bach C and D. You are correct. You need room to fit your rolled in chops inside the mouthpiece, let the musculature do the work and avoid pinning your lips together which I believe sometimes happens on a smaller mouthpiece.
.........................................................! Regards! Anthony[/img]


For the record I can disclose that my adventures with the Roll Ins, APS, etc are performed on a Schilke 14 3D3 mpc, custom built by Schilke. It´s pretty wide (17,02) and deeper than a regular C. I mostly practice on this mpc; my lead mpc is a Schilke 14 B. Also pretty wide, more shallow than a regular C but not as shallow as an A cup. Furthermore - slightly V cupish.
So again (and again) this is so personal.
_________________
Cornets:
Getzen Custom Series Schilke 143D3/ DW Ultra 1,5 C
Getzen 300 series
Yamaha YCRD2330II
Getzen Eterna Eb /M V 1 1/2 C/Schilke 14B
Trumpets:
Yamaha 6335 RC Schilke 14B
King Super 20 Symphony DB (1970)
Selmer Eb/D trumpet (1973) Selmer 2 D
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Lionel
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 25 Jul 2016
Posts: 676

PostPosted: Tue Jun 30, 2020 12:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes my friends. Whatever mouthpiece works. Look at Cat's screamer piece! Most trumpet players couldn't get a note out if it.

Then Roy Roman, a similarly powerful trumpet player with triple C range as did Cat? He used a 1C. This according to the editor of the Stevens book.

As to why I need one so bloody HUGE in inner rim dimension??? All that I can attribute it to are possibilities. Two of which I can think of.

1. I assume that my upper lip is less elastic than average. Being a very tall man, I could need a v large m/piece due perhaps to my upper lip having a longer group of muscle fibers. I can't easily prove this of course but it seems a reasonable explanation.

2. The forward jaw, rolled in chop setting has an amazing ability to play notes way WAY the heck up high. So it doesn't need a small inner rim dimension to pull off double, triple and sometimes even quad type notes. As a tool to play in the upper register nothing beats a Roll-In. But in order to fatten my sound and play Low C's? Those standard m/pieces can't provide the flexibility and sound. So I built a piece that a US nickel easily fits into. That's really large.

Thanks again to my old buddy Seymor for his thoughtful words and support.

PS to Seymor: Was wondering why my tone had recently become less big in the register in between the tuning note and high C. This sometimes referred to as the "cash register" I hadn't thought I'd been over training. But really? I was. Presently the best practice for me are just those routine technical studies all college trumpet majors must endure. And when I did these today?

Everything opened up. Plus my resolve returned. Heck it only took me a year and a half to largely conquer the Clarke Technical Studies back in the day. Only now I've finally got an unlimited embouchure. Its so cool to feel my upper & lower teeth remain open throughout the trumpet's range. The tone flowing open too.
_________________
"Check me if I'm wrong Sandy but if I kill all the golfers they're gonna lock me up & throw away the key"!

Carl Spackler (aka Bill Murray, 1980).
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
David
Veteran Member


Joined: 22 Nov 2002
Posts: 379

PostPosted: Tue Jun 30, 2020 2:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I worked on this years ago without knowing it was Stevens-Costello (or any method for that matter). I got the squeaky high notes working pretty well and established some decent control and accuracy. However I was never able to expand them to achieve any real volume and ultimately I abandoned it as a dead end. How do you transition from the small squeaky sounds to a full trumpet tone? Thanks.
_________________
Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and it annoys the pig.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Lionel
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 25 Jul 2016
Posts: 676

PostPosted: Tue Jun 30, 2020 10:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

David wrote:
I worked on this years ago without knowing it was Stevens-Costello (or any method for that matter). I got the squeaky high notes working pretty well and established some decent control and accuracy. However I was never able to expand them to achieve any real volume and ultimately I abandoned it as a dead end. How do you transition from the small squeaky sounds to a full trumpet tone? Thanks.



It's not just a good question but a crucial one David. Keep in mind this precursor thought.

The Stevens embouchure usually involves some kind of major embouchure change. As such the student suddenly becomes a veritable beginner again. Okay so now ask yourself this question,

How many beginners do you know who can play with a big sound well above high C? I'll answer that, none to almost none.

Next,
The Stevens System tends to gain an incredible leverage into the upper register due to the Rolled-In chops and the forward jaw setting. As such this fantastic leverage tends to put some stiffness in the vibrating surface of the upper lip. It is this loss in elasticity (I think!) that can limit volume/bigness in tone.

My solution to this was to use EXTREMELY large inner rim dimension mouthpieces but with medium to med shallow cups. I'm talking a 0.750 inch inner rim distance or diameter. Stock mouthpieces don't come this large so I made my own.

Its been less than eight months since I started this system and every week just about I've observed improvements in both my technique and volume.

To be continued.
_________________
"Check me if I'm wrong Sandy but if I kill all the golfers they're gonna lock me up & throw away the key"!

Carl Spackler (aka Bill Murray, 1980).
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Lionel
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 25 Jul 2016
Posts: 676

PostPosted: Sat Sep 12, 2020 4:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Report:
Its been almost nine months on the Stevens-Costello system for me. That and just about two months for my student. He's a reasonably advanced player in his early thirties. Me? I'm an old man.

How we're doing:

Yours truly. My articulation is improving. Just two months ago I couldn't articulate anything in the ledger lines. Now can actually tongue F/High C. My range is Low F# to something between Double C and F above. Just depends what time of the day. We're talkin practice room range here. Remember I've only been playing this wY since last November.


"The Kid". His high notes like High F to B flat below Double C are actually a little louder at two months than mine are at nine months. I'm not jealous here as this is a fantastic sign. In fact my guess is that since I'm probably practicing more often than he? That I'm probably coming into his lessons a little more tired over all. After he gets through a whole practice session he's also tired. So his volume gets softer too. This here is work my friends.

We noticed that he's getting deeper down into the middle register than he previously could. I suggested that when descending down to the area of our tuning note that he pucker a bit. We also shifted him over to a fully wet embouchure. As It's always preferable to play on wet chops when possible. So today we got him solidly down to a second line G natural. And with his ability to play passages up to and past Double C? His future couldn't look brighter.
_________________
"Check me if I'm wrong Sandy but if I kill all the golfers they're gonna lock me up & throw away the key"!

Carl Spackler (aka Bill Murray, 1980).
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    trumpetherald.com Forum Index -> High Range Development All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Page 1 of 1

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group