• FAQ  • Search  • Memberlist  • Usergroups   • Register   • Profile  • Log in to check your private messages  • Log in 

C Trumpet


Goto page 1, 2  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    trumpetherald.com Forum Index -> Comeback Players
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
JensenW
Regular Member


Joined: 12 Dec 2012
Posts: 20
Location: Raleigh, NC

PostPosted: Sat Sep 12, 2020 2:07 pm    Post subject: C Trumpet Reply with quote

So, here is a stupid question. I'll blush even before asking it. I have always played a Bb trumpet. Is the fingering for the C trumpet the same as for a Bb. Bb is written 1 step up, so written "C" is actually played as Bb (I know you know this, just wanted to be clear.) On a C trumpet then, first open would be a C, both written and played, correct? Next would be D as written, and fingered valves 1-3? Or no?

If the fingering is different, can anybody point to a method book, or a place where fingering is explained, or is this a secret lore only the trumpet community knows.
_________________
Wade
Yamaha YTR 737

The goal is to be a better trumpeter today than I was yesterday.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
kehaulani
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 23 Mar 2003
Posts: 4921
Location: Hawai'i - Texas

PostPosted: Sat Sep 12, 2020 2:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A Bb trumpet sounds one full step up from concert pitch and the reverse.
_________________
"If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Charlie Parker
"Even if I could play like Wynton Marsalis, I wouldn't play like Wynton Marsalis."
Chet Baker


Last edited by kehaulani on Sun Sep 13, 2020 7:44 am; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Richard A
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 689
Location: Rhode Island, USA

PostPosted: Sat Sep 12, 2020 2:42 pm    Post subject: Re: C Trumpet Reply with quote

JensenW wrote:
On a C trumpet then, first open would be a C, both written and played, correct? Next would be D as written, and fingered valves 1-3?


You are correct.
_________________
Richard Ashmore
I am a Mechanical Engineer and have many years of Social Distancing experience.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
JensenW
Regular Member


Joined: 12 Dec 2012
Posts: 20
Location: Raleigh, NC

PostPosted: Sat Sep 12, 2020 3:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you, and thank you for not laughing. I am thinking of getting a C trumpet and couldn't find much in the way of fingering on the internet.
_________________
Wade
Yamaha YTR 737

The goal is to be a better trumpeter today than I was yesterday.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Ed Kennedy
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 15 Jan 2005
Posts: 2906

PostPosted: Sat Sep 12, 2020 3:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yep. the fingerings are the same. If you are reading a Bb part with a C trumpet you have to transpose everything a step down.

In the Army, some 50 years ago, I came in as a hell-bent-for-leather C trumpet legit guy. I sat on 1st trumpet in the concert band with a very fine LA studio caliber player who played just Bb. He could see my fingers in his peripheral vision and it drove him NUTZ because we were playing the same Bb parts.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
kehaulani
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 23 Mar 2003
Posts: 4921
Location: Hawai'i - Texas

PostPosted: Sat Sep 12, 2020 3:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No laughing, here. We were all a blank slates at some time or another.
_________________
"If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Charlie Parker
"Even if I could play like Wynton Marsalis, I wouldn't play like Wynton Marsalis."
Chet Baker
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
JensenW
Regular Member


Joined: 12 Dec 2012
Posts: 20
Location: Raleigh, NC

PostPosted: Sat Sep 12, 2020 5:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ed Kennedy wrote:
Yep. the fingerings are the same. If you are reading a Bb part with a C trumpet you have to transpose everything a step down.

In the Army, some 50 years ago, I came in as a hell-bent-for-leather C trumpet legit guy. I sat on 1st trumpet in the concert band with a very fine LA studio caliber player who played just Bb. He could see my fingers in his peripheral vision and it drove him NUTZ because we were playing the same Bb parts.


LOL
_________________
Wade
Yamaha YTR 737

The goal is to be a better trumpeter today than I was yesterday.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
zaferis
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 03 Nov 2011
Posts: 1854
Location: Beavercreek, OH

PostPosted: Sat Sep 12, 2020 6:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

When playing the open low note (or fundamental) the trumpet sounds its name. C trumpet low open note is a C on a piano- Bb trumpet is a Bb.
The fingering is the same as Bb (or other trumpets).

We transpose the music to fit the trumpet (either on paper or by sight).

This all gets very confusing. Try to start thinking of Concert Pitch (piano pitch if you will).
On your Bb trumpet (which sounds down a whole step) when you play a C, its concert pitch is Bb. D, 1-3, is a concert C. etc.
On your C trumpet when you play a C, its concert pitch is C. D, 1-3 is a concert D. etc.

When you're playing the trumpet that the part is written for, a Bb or C instrument, you just read the notes and use the same fingering (no separate fingering chart needed)...
It all gets fun when you're looking at a Bb trumpet part and have a C trumpet on your face or visa versa.

Interestingly, low brass players don't transpose this way. They move the fingering pattern... a written low C on a C tuba is open, a written low C on a Bb tuba is 1-3.
_________________
Freelance Performer/Educator
Adjunct Professor
Bach Trumpet Endorsing Artist
Retired Air Force Bandsman
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
JoeLoeffler
Veteran Member


Joined: 20 Sep 2004
Posts: 137

PostPosted: Sat Sep 12, 2020 8:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Don’t worry too much about it. Assuming you are playing C parts with a C trumpet in your hand, just play the notes as they come like you would on your Bb playing Bb parts. Your ear will adjust. The biggest difference is that you should play the E and Eb at the top of the staff 1,2 and 2,3. Folks often say that you don’t need to, but you do. Even if the pitch is ok (and it very rarely ever is) the timbre is more even with the notes around them when played 1,2/ 2,3.

Transposing, now that is a different discussion entirely...
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
khedger
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 12 Mar 2008
Posts: 591
Location: Cambridge, MA

PostPosted: Sat Sep 12, 2020 11:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'll ask another one and request that you guys not laugh at me.
I don't play 'classical' literature. I play jazz. I've always wondered why jazz players don't just play C trumpets and skip all of this transposition crap. Is there some reason why one wouldn't play jazz on a C trumpet? Cause nobody ever seems to.....enlighten me.

keith
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
James Becker
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 02 Sep 2005
Posts: 2678
Location: Littleton, MA

PostPosted: Sun Sep 13, 2020 12:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It’s all good, Keith. There’s a more practical answer. Perhaps a too simplistic an explanation, I believe it has to do with the characteristic quality of sound of the key. Stylistically the Bb sound is engrained in our ears. Of course, the majority of us started on Bb trumpets as beginners, and are most common type. And it’s worth pointing out the pitch tendencies of problem notes tend to be more pronounced on C trumpets. One rare exception I’ve heard is Tine Thing Helseth, she performs jazz on C trumpet, and has a lovely sound and sense of style that transcends key. Though there are some C trumpets made that have a more familiar Bb feel, they are not typically played in orchestras because they don’t possess the tonal qualities classical players are seeking.

These are my observations for what it’s worth.
_________________
James Becker
Brass Repair Specialist Since 1977
Osmun Music Inc.
77 Powdermill Road Rt.62
Acton, MA 01720
www.osmun.com

Our workshop is as close as your nearest UPS store https://www.ups.com/dropoff?loc=en_US
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website AIM Address
delano
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 18 Jan 2009
Posts: 1959
Location: The Netherlands

PostPosted: Sun Sep 13, 2020 1:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you only play jazz it's no problem to think with a Bflat trumpet in concert pitch. So the lowest regular note is a Bflat. Up there is a F, again a Bflat, a D and so on. Bix did it and there are more. In a former life I was a bass guitarist and so I know the schemes of the standards in concert pitch. Therefor I think on my trumpet in concert pitch. For reading it's no problem, you can read C-scores but also Bflat scores. I read an in Blat notated D as a C. In fact is all notation for trumpets a fingering notation.
Only when I study some piano it takes some time to change back.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Steve A
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 26 May 2006
Posts: 1501
Location: Toronto, Canada

PostPosted: Sun Sep 13, 2020 7:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

khedger wrote:
I'll ask another one and request that you guys not laugh at me.
I don't play 'classical' literature. I play jazz. I've always wondered why jazz players don't just play C trumpets and skip all of this transposition crap. Is there some reason why one wouldn't play jazz on a C trumpet? Cause nobody ever seems to.....enlighten me.

keith


Have you spent much time playing C trumpets? No doubt there are different designs out there, but the bulk of the C trumpets I've played are very stiff in their note placement and slotting, compared to Bb trumpets. For lack of a better description, it's like if Bb trumpets were ice skating, and C trumpets snow shoeing. It's a feel that works well for orchestra, but would probably feel like a straightjacket for many jazz soloists. Orchestral-style C trumpets are, IMO, a specialized instrument to a significant degree.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
kehaulani
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 23 Mar 2003
Posts: 4921
Location: Hawai'i - Texas

PostPosted: Sun Sep 13, 2020 7:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dude, LOL, how difficult can transposing things up a step be?
_________________
"If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Charlie Parker
"Even if I could play like Wynton Marsalis, I wouldn't play like Wynton Marsalis."
Chet Baker
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
khedger
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 12 Mar 2008
Posts: 591
Location: Cambridge, MA

PostPosted: Wed Sep 16, 2020 7:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kehaulani wrote:
Dude, LOL, how difficult can transposing things up a step be?


Interesting that you should ask. While, when I was playing a lot of written stuff all of the time I was a great sight reader, I've always struggled to transpose well. I mean I know how to do it, but doing it in real time has just always been a struggle. And my understanding was that the only reason we have transposing instruments anyway (and keep having them) has to do with history and being able to play all of the historical literature that calls for them. It just seemed like a natural question to me - if one is NOT playing this hisorical material, then why even go there? Your comment sounds suspiciously like laughter to me

keith
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
OldSchoolEuph
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 07 Apr 2012
Posts: 823

PostPosted: Thu Sep 17, 2020 2:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kehaulani wrote:
Dude, LOL, how difficult can transposing things up a step be?


Actually, I find that to be the hardest. Being a bass clef person most of my life, and church musician playing out of hymnals since age 7 or 8, when I picked up a trumpet at age 44, again using it for church settings mostly, I didn't bother worrying about Bb parts, I just kept reading C. As a result, Bb parts are a transposition for me and compared to virtually anything else, the biggest challenge. It's too close and I tend to just pop back to reading it as C the moment I think about anything else. Put a French horn part in front of me no problem, but standard trumpet parts, ugh!

(Of course what really makes me crazy are D & Eb horns. Playing one note while simultaneously inputting that to my brain visually, but hearing a different pitch makes me feel like something is wrong the whole time)
_________________
Ron Berndt
www.trumpet-history.com

2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1927 Conn 22B NYS
1957 Holton Model 27 Stratodyne
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson British Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Steve A
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 26 May 2006
Posts: 1501
Location: Toronto, Canada

PostPosted: Thu Sep 17, 2020 6:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

A thought about transposition: I think part of what makes transposition hard is that most people, in my experience, try to avoid doing it, even with transposing parts, so don't really learn it as its own skill. I certainly didn't do it properly for the first few years I was playing transposing parts, and, predictably, my skills stayed weak and unreliable.

The problem, IMO, is that we try to take a short cut by mostly memorizing or playing by ear, rather than actually learning to read the first time in a new transposition. In the short term, avoiding reading might be a better return on the investment of time for a single given piece, but in the long term, it does nothing to make transposition stop being a problem.

What made a big difference for me was the great advice on this subject I received from Andrew McCandless. He had me play the exercises in the Getchell books, each in a different transposition, two pages each day, and only playing once through each exercise. Rather than practicing (which quickly turned to memorizing) hard passages, or repeating things, it was important to play through things at a tempo where I could realistically be reasonably successful (so, slowly), and play it once as well as I could, then move on. I did that (on C trumpet) for A, Bb, D, Eb, E, and F transpositions, and it got so I was comfortable reading most relatively simple music the first time in all those transpositions, which has saved my bacon on gigs more than once.

For this to work, you need to pick material that's easy enough you have a realistic chance of being able to read it, and you need to be disciplined about treating it as an actual reading exercise, and not cave into the temptation to repeat to fix stuff. It should be music you could easily sight read if it was written in the key of your instrument, so that you can work only on the skill of transposition. If you do that patiently for a few months, I think you'll find it makes most of these problems go away. (Especially if you only need to learn Bb-C transposition, or vice versa.)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
kehaulani
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 23 Mar 2003
Posts: 4921
Location: Hawai'i - Texas

PostPosted: Thu Sep 17, 2020 7:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Excellent suggestion.
_________________
"If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Charlie Parker
"Even if I could play like Wynton Marsalis, I wouldn't play like Wynton Marsalis."
Chet Baker
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Craig Swartz
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 14 Jan 2005
Posts: 7610
Location: Des Moines, IA area

PostPosted: Thu Sep 17, 2020 7:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just a bit more information on the above OP and some of the answers. Hope it's clear, it's much easier to demonstrate.

Actually, all "3 valve" brass instruments use the same fingering progressions. That includes trumpets in all keys, baritone/euphonium, tuba, even french horn, including double. (The thumb valve on horn and 4th valve on baritone and tuba, as well as the thumb on trombone actally place the instrument in Fl which doubles the possibilities below.)

When one breaks the tubing down, we've really made 7 different "bugles"out of the instrument in question, progressing downward from "open horn" (no valves depressed) by half steps when the valves are pressed in the following order: 0, 2, 1, 12 (or 3), 23, 13, 123.

Looking at the length of tubing from each valve, the length of the middle valve lowers pitch from open horn by a half step. This is true from any partial. The length of the 1st valve tubing is a whole step lower from open horn, looking at it the tubing/slide appears twice as long as the middle one. The third valve tubing lowers pitch 1 1/2 steps and appears to be three times the length of the middle (1/2 step) slide. For most purposes we use a combination of 1 and 2 which add up to the same length as 3 and is a compromise to allow better pitch in the range in which the instrument plays most of the time.

Continuing on, 23 combination adds yet another half tone, lowering pitch 2 steps, 13= 2 1/2 steps lower and 123 together lower pitch 3 whole steps. One can easily see how this works by starting on any open tone and playing through the partials, then progressing downward through each other fingering playing the same partials which will sound exactly the same except for being a half step lower. These 7 valve combinations correspond with the 7 slide positions on trombone and I often taught fingerings as "positions" which made it easy for baritone and horn players to double on trombone in Jazz Band. (I always needed trombone players...)

The genius of all this is that there become many ways to finger the same tones once we are into the 3rd and 4 partials; eventually we can play an entire scale with extra half tone steps on the same fingerings when we're high enough. Start on F#, top of the staff (Bb trumpet) and you should be able to play an entire scale (+ tones) if you can get to the F# above "high C". While we don't often use many of these fingerings they are possible because of the overtone series. I suppose everyone has also noticed that while we use the 0, 1, and 2 fingerings all over the instrument, we usually use 123 and 13 for only two pitches each.

As for jazz players (I consider that small group and not "Big Band-type playing) just using C trumpet rather than Bb, it wouldn't be much of an issue except that most of us who started on Bb learned to play most of the standards in "those keys" already.

Hope this all makes sense- when I've explained it to young students and can demonstrate by pulling slides, etc, it seems pretty clear to them.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address
JensenW
Regular Member


Joined: 12 Dec 2012
Posts: 20
Location: Raleigh, NC

PostPosted: Thu Sep 17, 2020 7:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whew, guys, I thought I might be the only one! This is "Comeback Players" forum, right? Well, I am a comeback player. I haven't tooted a note since 2013 when my teacher left for greener pastures. Before that, I had to quit because I had had a stroke, plus my then instructor, a Chief MSgt with the Air Force Band had a new infant, so...Seems his name was Ron Blaise,

In any case, I find now my slotting is...welll...dubious, my endurance is horrible, and my range...forgetaboutit. I hardly know what to work on first. I broke out the old Rubank Trumpet Method. It is old, and delicate, but it seems the way to restart. My practice routine is better though, so I have hope. When Covid is over, I may find another instructor. An instructor is valuable if for no other reason than to keep a person accountable.

In any case, no, I never learned to transpose on the fly. Of course I can transpose. I play other instruments. But after hearing other's thoughts on C trumpets, I decided to stay with the Bb.

Finally, kehualani, I didn't take any offence. You are obviously an accomplished player. If I can get to where I can play for church services, that would be alright with me.
_________________
Wade
Yamaha YTR 737

The goal is to be a better trumpeter today than I was yesterday.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    trumpetherald.com Forum Index -> Comeback Players All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Goto page 1, 2  Next
Page 1 of 2

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group