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Most Influential Orchestral Player?


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trumpet_cop
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 10, 2020 6:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tpt_Guy wrote:


Don't be literal. Be literate.


I think you need to check yourself, friend. That is an incredibly crappy comment. Unless you are a major professor or major player, don't act like that. Even if you were, don't act like that. it is highly unbecoming and not welcomed here.

For the record, no one is questioning Schlossberg, just the folks who are not strictly orchestral players or pedagogues as the thread is actually trying to discuss.

I agree with Didymus as well, Thompson's catalog of orchestral recordings with Montreal and Atlanta changed they way I hear and want to play things. Herseth and Vacchiano started things, Phil carried them on, but when I hear many modern players especially ones between the ages of 20 to 45, I hear more Thompson influence. Sure there are lots of Herseth things. I for one enjoy older Boston and Detroit recordings of French literature because the styling is impeccable for it.

The orchestral world is a big melting pot. Just like we learned about in social studies/history class back in school.
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 10, 2020 8:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There are currently too many overreactions to fairly benign comments.

Any more, and this thread will be yanked.

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Steve A
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 10, 2020 9:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Being transparent about why I posted this - I wasn't really expecting any kind of answer or consensus, but I was just hoping that I'd learn some things. Sure enough, lots of what's been posted has been really illuminating. (I knew Schlossberg was an important teacher, but I had no idea he had had so many major students. What a shame more of his teaching hasn't been preserved!)

I also hoped to see more continental European players getting mentioned because, to be honest, I don't really know that many beyond recent Berlin Phil, Vienna Phil, and Concertgebouw members, all of whom I love, but I really don't know many major names from more than 25 years ago.
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area51recording
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 10, 2020 11:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tpt_Guy wrote:
hup_d_dup wrote:
You would have to consider Georges Mager, who instructed Herseth, Voisin, and Adelstein, each of whom influenced countless others. Mager, during his long career in Europe and the US (principal at Boston for 30 years) was the player who was most influential in the shift from Bb to C trumpets in American orchestras.

Hup


Well, if we're going historical, I'll have to throw my hat in for Max Schlossberg.

Some of Schlossberg's students (taken from jlandressbrass.com):

Elden E. Benge
Isidor Blank
Saul Caston
Charles Colin
Louis Davidson
Vladimir Drucker
Harry Freistadt (his son-in-law)
Harry Glantz
Bernie Glow
Sigmund Hering
Max Kaminsky
"Mannie" Klein
Charlie Margulis
Nathan Prager
Seymour Rosenfeld
Reynold Schilke
James Stamp
Edward Treutel
William Vacchiano
Doc Cheatham
John Barnett
Irwin Shainman
Seymour Feuer
Harry James
Charlie Spivack

All influential in their own right, some becoming influential teachers still praised today.


THAT is one heck of a roster!
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trpt2
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 10, 2020 2:33 pm    Post subject: Most influential trumpet player? Reply with quote

Hello all,
I wasn't going to comment on this, but I kind of feel like why not..
Honestly, I don't believe there has been a "Most " influential orchestral trumpet player.
In major symphony orchestras, over the last century, there have been Many inspirational and phenomenal players as well as role models for trumpet players. Of course, many of us will gravitate towards our teachers, geographical areas, styles, etc.
IF I had to name a few....
Obviously, Herseth comes to mind.
Vacchiano, who (in full disclosure) was one of my teachers, and taught just about every job holding orchestral trumpet players for decades.
Ghitalla- a student of Vacchiano. Also,a teacher of many top orchestral players.(yes, me too).
Voisin, of course.
Bernie Adelstein. A force of nature.
Of course Phil Smith !
Tommy Stevens.
Jim Thompson. ( I was fortunate enough to be associate principal trumpet with Jim in Montreal for 9 years. I can count the notes he missed on one hand..phenomenal)
On a current note, Dave Bilger. Played with him for 25 years. Still a huge influence.
Chris Martin, a former Philly guy, history still being made.

Hopefuy, you are starting to get my point.
There are So many terrific players out there, both past and present, how could one be the Most influential?
Rolf Smedvig, Steve Hendrickson, all incredibly influential in their own right.

All this being said, I am incredibly thankful for the career I have had, and that I had been able to work with many of these people!
I'd like to think that we are All still learning from these former and current masters.
Always room for improvement!

Bob Earley

P.S.-to bike&ed... Harry James actually Did influence an orchestral player.
Frank Kaderabec was a huge fan; James was one of his idols!
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trumpet56
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 10, 2020 4:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

One of the present greats of today I would like to mention is Michael Sachs Principal of the Cleveland Orchestra. Just listening to his Youtube videos has influenced the way I articulate the notes. He is a student of Stamp and therefore a musical Grandson of Schlossberg.
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bike&ed
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 10, 2020 4:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you for that Bob, it’s wonderful to hear from someone at your level! Amazing players such as yourself are a big reason why we end up thinking of particular principals...
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trumpetchops
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 11, 2020 6:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you listen to old recordings and compared to newer recordings you will hear a big difference in style. Who influenced the change? I don't know.

When I was in college, way back then, I loved Boston and Chicago. Later, I also loved NY. I'm not sure why not NY back then. Maybe I was influenced more by classmates than what I heard? I didn't know much about the other orchestras.

If you think about players that pushed things, I think Charlie Schluter would be one to mention. I don't know if his influence took hold but, it was there while he was.
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kehaulani
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 11, 2020 6:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If we're in that realm of discussion (taste back when vs. today), when I was younger, one thing I really enjoyed was the diverse styles. You could almost guarantee you were listening to an Italian orchestra vs. a French one, for example. Clearly defined national styles and even styles within a country, America.

I suppose for real connoisseur, they can still discern the various styles. For me, it's not so easy any more. Kind'a like the change in landscape between mom & pop stores and cookie cutter stores.
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Trumpetinberlin
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 15, 2020 4:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Funny enough that Adolph Herseth stated that Jussi Björling was a major influence.
And maybe topic should be named „most influental orchestral trumpeter in America“.
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Steve A
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 15, 2020 6:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Trumpetinberlin wrote:
Funny enough that Adolph Herseth stated that Jussi Björling was a major influence.
And maybe topic should be named „most influental orchestral trumpeter in America“.


No question there has been a North American bias, but I was hoping for some input from people who know the European brass playing scene better than I do. Would you care to share your thoughts?
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Trumpetinberlin
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 15, 2020 7:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Steve A wrote:
Trumpetinberlin wrote:
Funny enough that Adolph Herseth stated that Jussi Björling was a major influence.
And maybe topic should be named „most influental orchestral trumpeter in America“.


No question there has been a North American bias, but I was hoping for some input from people who know the European brass playing scene better than I do. Would you care to share your thoughts?


A good source is E.H.Tarrs book „the trumpet“ where there‘s a chapter about the different national schools.
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bike&ed
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 15, 2020 9:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Trumpetinberlin wrote:
A good source is E.H.Tarrs book „the trumpet“ where there‘s a chapter about the different national schools.


pp. 116-133 in the 2008 Hickman revised edition
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trumpet56
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 15, 2020 10:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

"I found this dissertation online by Laura Bloss on A Comparative Examination of Six American Master Trumpet Teachers and the Regional Schools of Playing That They Represent. The six master trumpet teachers she covers are:

Vincent Cichowicz in Chicago
Louis Davidson in Cleveland
Armando Ghitalla in Boston
John Haynie in the Southwest
James Stamp on the West Coast
William Vacchiano in New York City

She also wrote about the early influence of Max Schlossberg and Harry Glanz.

Bloss compared these masters on these topics:

Breathing
Embouchure
Sound Concept and Tone Production
Articulation
Technique
Lesson Structure and Materials

Then she finished with a comparison of the sounds of these players, even with spectrographic analysis of recordings of Vacchiano, Ghitalla, Herseth and others. (Well, it's a Phd dissertation after all.) Interesting read! "

This is a quote from member dstdenis. Posted in 2017.

This is a wonderful dissertation which researches the inluences in the American orchestral Trumpet style. Well worth a read.


Last edited by trumpet56 on Thu Oct 15, 2020 10:39 am; edited 1 time in total
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area51recording
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 15, 2020 10:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Link?
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trumpet56
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 15, 2020 10:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I tried to copy a link but you can find it from the original post by googling Laura Bloss Trumpet Herald.
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Ex-Trumpet
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 20, 2020 8:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

trumpet_cop wrote:
Ex-Trumpet wrote:


And who hasn't been influenced by Maurice Andre?!?!


Andre's large success was as a soloist; not an orchestral player. Not sure that particular influence applies in this particular realm.

I have to agree with Bike&ed. While many orchestral players have influenced many players, those who did not become orchestral players or practitioners cannot be considered in this discussion. Commercial players are great. Those who go on to teach are great. Tpt_guy even qualified it that some listed players were influential in their own right, but they are not influential orchestral players and therefore were probably not directly responsible for influencing the path of orchestral performance and pedagogy today.


If you think Maurice Andre didn't influence orchestral players you're crazy! Not trying to be mean, but I know way too many orchestral players that were directly influenced by him.
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dem
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 20, 2020 6:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would like to answer this from my personal perspective. I heard Herseth in 1970. What impressed me was the total sound from the section including the low brass, not just his playing. After the concert, he was smoking a pipe. So, at 18, I started smoking a pipe. That was his influence on me, besides being a great fan of how clean his sound was. (It took me 10 years to give up smoking.) Shortly after that I auditioned at Julliard. Vacciano was there, he liked my playing, but I was not well enough prepared. So I didn't get accepted. This huge disappointment lead me to give up the horn for many years. Later, through recordings, I am a huge fan of his, the immense character of his sound.

Years later, back to Philly, I heard Dave Bilger, a wonderful, lyrical player. Over to Pittsburgh, to see my mother, Vosburgh et al blew me away with their power. These are the standouts, among the many that I have heard.
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Athos
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 22, 2020 3:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've enjoyed watching this thread develop, and seeing such great names bandied about. I will bring up two more orchestral players who could be argued to be most influential in today's orchestral world: Charlie Geyer and Barbara Butler. Both are excellent orchestral players, and their influence through their teaching careers has been truly extraordinary.
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LaTrompeta
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 22, 2020 8:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Athos wrote:
I've enjoyed watching this thread develop, and seeing such great names bandied about. I will bring up two more orchestral players who could be argued to be most influential in today's orchestral world: Charlie Geyer and Barbara Butler. Both are excellent orchestral players, and their influence through their teaching careers has been truly extraordinary.


And, if you ask them who their greatest influence was, their likely to suggest Herseth.
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