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Kanstul 1500a vs Taylor Chicago Standard


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dogzstar
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 18, 2020 6:27 am    Post subject: Kanstul 1500a vs Taylor Chicago Standard Reply with quote

So, I am trying to decide between these two horns, both used. Anybody had the chance to compare them side by side? Both are "heavy" horns, which I like, -Chicago Std. is lighter than the Custom though. The Chicago Standard has Bauerfeind valves, which may be a plus. Both sell for similar prices new, Kanstul is considerably cheaper second hand, but it's kind of more difficult to find a Taylor horn used. Are both "handmade" horns? Is the Taylor the better made horn? I am looking for a darker tone for jazz combo playing, I suppose both would deliver that. Easier slotting and easier hi-register would be preferred. Please help me decide.
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Shawnino
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 18, 2020 6:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

No help to your initial question, sorry, but do want to point out that second-hand Taylors aren't that rare.
Trevor Jones in Bristol usually has a handful, and prices include VAT, so shipping outside UK/EU knocks off 20%.

https://trevorjonesltd.co.uk/shop/product-category/instruments/brass-instruments/trumpets/trumpet-brands/taylor-trumpets/page/1/

I'm not affiliated with TT or TJ, but Andy did build me a custom fluegel.
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Subtropical and Subpar
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 18, 2020 7:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I remember reading on other TH threads that the leadpipe of the Kanstul 1500A is such that some mouthpieces, particularly Monettes, are nigh incompatible. I do not remember offhand if this is a matter of gap or insertion length or what. But you should check to make sure that your preferred mouthpiece(s) jibe with that horn.
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HaveTrumpetWillTravel
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 18, 2020 8:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Can you test play them? If the Kanstul's much cheaper, I'd be tempted.

I've actually been looking at Taylors too. On Reverb there's a Stomvi-Taylor hybrid that is reasonable (cool bell and leadpipie, and I don't know how Stomvi valves compare to the Carol valves on the current Taylors, but should be comparable). There's also an Austin Winds that is apparently made by Taylor. They're selling for 1700 and 1900 I think.

Let us know what you pick and how you feel about the decision...
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Brad361
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 18, 2020 9:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Subtropical and Subpar wrote:
I remember reading on other TH threads that the leadpipe of the Kanstul 1500A is such that some mouthpieces, particularly Monettes, are nigh incompatible. I do not remember offhand if this is a matter of gap or insertion length or what. But you should check to make sure that your preferred mouthpiece(s) jibe with that horn.


I tried a 1500A on one gig, a standard shank mouthpiece works fine, but a heavyweight, like a Bach or Schilke heavyweight mouthpiece, won’t work because of the larger and longer mouthpiece receiver. The lower external portion of the cup hits the receiver before the shank can be inserted far enough.

My Adams A4LT is probably the same (“probably” because I don’t use a heavy weight mouthpiece, so I have not actually tried it).

Brad
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dogzstar
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 18, 2020 9:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Unfortunately I have no chance to try either horns and no experience with both brands before, this is why I need your help.

Actually both the Taylor-Stomvi hybrid on Reverb and the London models on Trevor are interesting. But Londons were "entry" models of Taylor back then as far as I know, and the older Chicago I'm looking for has Bauerfeind valves, which supposed to be better than Stomvi and Carol valves, right? Also the Chicago is the heavier model which I'm after.

The Kanstul 1500a is 1.5 times cheaper than the Taylor, but price is not a criteria here.
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Goby
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 18, 2020 9:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I had a standard weight kanstul 1500 with a copper bell and nickel trim. It was a fantastic horn and was excellent for small group and had an awesome high register.

I think the Taylor is a superior horn in terms of build quality, brand, and rarity. Without having played one, I am reluctant to say if it's going to suit your needs better than the Kanstul, but I will say that you can't go wrong with either.

If price is not a concern, I'd recommend picking up the Taylor first, and if you don't like it after a couple months, get a Kanstul. The Stomvi-Taylor hybrid on reverb is definitely worth considering, and for the price, it probably can't be beat.

If money is really no object, you could also reach out to Andy Taylor and see if he has any new "demo" stock horns that he'd sell direct.
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Subtropical and Subpar
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 18, 2020 1:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Brad361 wrote:
Subtropical and Subpar wrote:
I remember reading on other TH threads that the leadpipe of the Kanstul 1500A is such that some mouthpieces, particularly Monettes, are nigh incompatible. I do not remember offhand if this is a matter of gap or insertion length or what. But you should check to make sure that your preferred mouthpiece(s) jibe with that horn.


I tried a 1500A on one gig, a standard shank mouthpiece works fine, but a heavyweight, like a Bach or Schilke heavyweight mouthpiece, won’t work because of the larger and longer mouthpiece receiver. The lower external portion of the cup hits the receiver before the shank can be inserted far enough.


Yikes! That would be an issue for those with heavyweight mouthpieces.
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Subtropical and Subpar
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 18, 2020 1:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Despite the mouthpiece fit issue of the 1500A, let me add a general word of praise for Kanstul trumpets. My 991, the "Kanstullation," is a fabulous horn. All the hallmarks of the old 38As - the .438 bore, big bell (5 1/4"), wide wrap, straight bracing, first-valve trigger, etc. Plus a copper leadpipe, which removes one major long-term worry. Being a near-Connstellation clone, it leans on the brighter side of the spectrum, but it is very mouthpiece sensitive and can make a lush, beautiful, voice-like timbre with a piece like a Monette B11. It is also ridiculously easy to play and from day one afforded me another half octave over my Bach 180 72 bell.

I have to imagine the 1500A is similarly excellent in its own way.
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Goby
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 18, 2020 3:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I used a short shank mouthpiece on my Kanstul 1500 and had no issue. The elongated receiver has nothing to do with the gap between the mouthpiece and the start of the leadpipe. If there was an issue with someone's mouthpiece touching the leadpipe before it could create a seal with the mouthpiece receiver, its likely an issue with a specific instrument, and does not speak for the rest of the Kanstul 1500A line. You can use any trumpet mouthpiece with any trumpet and expect it to work. Further fine tuning of the gap is up to the player if they want to go down that rabbit hole.
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HaveTrumpetWillTravel
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 18, 2020 7:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dogzstar wrote:
Unfortunately I have no chance to try either horns and no experience with both brands before, this is why I need your help.

Actually both the Taylor-Stomvi hybrid on Reverb and the London models on Trevor are interesting. But Londons were "entry" models of Taylor back then as far as I know, and the older Chicago I'm looking for has Bauerfeind valves, which supposed to be better than Stomvi and Carol valves, right? Also the Chicago is the heavier model which I'm after.

The Kanstul 1500a is 1.5 times cheaper than the Taylor, but price is not a criteria here.


I didn't see the London but there's an Austin Winds, which apparently sources their trumpets from different sources, and the one on Reverb sure looks like a balanced version from Taylor. If it were me, I'd probably prefer Bauerfeind but Carol or Stomvi would be fine also.

I'd also forgotten that on facebook I saw Taylor listed several older Chicagos that have come back to them for resale and they said to contact them for a quote. They might be reasonable--worth asking.
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Existentialist
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 18, 2020 8:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Both are great horns, but the Taylor is quite special. I have a used Chicago Standard that has just been chem cleaned and refurbished. I'm thinking about selling it. Send me a pm if you're interested
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Brad361
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 18, 2020 9:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Subtropical and Subpar wrote:
Brad361 wrote:
Subtropical and Subpar wrote:
I remember reading on other TH threads that the leadpipe of the Kanstul 1500A is such that some mouthpieces, particularly Monettes, are nigh incompatible. I do not remember offhand if this is a matter of gap or insertion length or what. But you should check to make sure that your preferred mouthpiece(s) jibe with that horn.


I tried a 1500A on one gig, a standard shank mouthpiece works fine, but a heavyweight, like a Bach or Schilke heavyweight mouthpiece, won’t work because of the larger and longer mouthpiece receiver. The lower external portion of the cup hits the receiver before the shank can be inserted far enough.


Yikes! That would be an issue for those with heavyweight mouthpieces.


Definitely.

Brad
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JayKosta
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 19, 2020 6:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Brad361 wrote:
...
I tried a 1500A on one gig, a standard shank mouthpiece works fine, but a heavyweight, like a Bach or Schilke heavyweight mouthpiece, won’t work because of the larger and longer mouthpiece receiver. The lower external portion of the cup hits the receiver before the shank can be inserted far enough. ...

-------------------------
That would seem to indicate that the length of the mpc receiver is longer that usual (perhaps a design to give more support to the mpc shank?).
I think that typical shank insertion distance into the receiver is about 1 inch, and that leaves quite a bit of the shank outside the receiver.

Jay
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Subtropical and Subpar
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 19, 2020 6:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have to say, the difference in how far the mouthpiece goes in the 1500A versus the other models is rather noticeable even in the pictures on their website, which is still online for archival purposes. Check it out:

1500A: http://www.kanstul.com/instruments/trumpets/1500-a-bb-trumpet/

1500: http://www.kanstul.com/instruments/trumpets/1500-bb-trumpet/

991: http://www.kanstul.com/instruments/trumpets/991-bb-mariachi-premier-trumpet/

The 1500A definitely swallows more of the mouthpiece.

Side note: that 1500 is really gorgeous, right up there with the Getzen 900DLX.
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dogzstar
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 19, 2020 8:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for all the comments guys.

I contacted Andy and opted for a reasonably priced used Chicago Standard with Bauerfeind valves! I will let you know when I receive the horn. It's 1.5 times more expensive than the Kanstul but I think it deserves definitely what I paid.

I have some cash left, and now debating between a very well priced second hand Kanstul 930 cornet for sale here in Europe and a brand new Adams Sonics Flügelhorn. My vintage Courtois Flügel is for sale but I can live with it, and never had a pro level cornet, so Kanstul 930 is very tempting. Not much feedback on the new Adams Sonic line and it's always on stock so it can wait. Another option is to wait for a second hand Van Laar Oriam Flügel. What do you think?
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Subtropical and Subpar
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 19, 2020 8:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dogzstar wrote:
Thanks for all the comments guys.

I contacted Andy and opted for a reasonably priced used Chicago Standard with Bauerfeind valves! I will let you know when I receive the horn. It's 1.5 times more expensive than the Kanstul but I think it deserves definitely what I paid.

I have some cash left, and now debating between a very well priced second hand Kanstul 930 cornet for sale here in Europe and a brand new Adams Sonics Flügelhorn. My vintage Courtois Flügel is for sale but I can live with it, and never had a pro level cornet, so Kanstul 930 is very tempting. Not much feedback on the new Adams Sonic line and it's always on stock so it can wait. Another option is to wait for a second hand Van Laar Oriam Flügel. What do you think?


Not a lot of feedback on the Sonic because not a lot of dealers. My understanding is that Trent Austin is the only Adams Sonic retailer in the US. He has a few videos on Youtube demoing the Sonic Flugelhorn and it sounds fabulous. Granted Trent makes everything sound fabulous, but it sounds so good that were I in the market, I may opt for it over spending another $1,000 or more on an Adams F1 or F5.
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Shawnino
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 19, 2020 9:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you can, test the top-end Carol Fluegels.
I had the red brass one (9990) and it was amazing.
New $1200-$1800 (Thomann seems best priced); used, considerably less.
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dogzstar
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 19, 2020 9:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Subtropical and Subpar wrote:

Not a lot of feedback on the Sonic because not a lot of dealers. My understanding is that Trent Austin is the only Adams Sonic retailer in the US. He has a few videos on Youtube demoing the Sonic Flugelhorn and it sounds fabulous. Granted Trent makes everything sound fabulous, but it sounds so good that were I in the market, I may opt for it over spending another $1,000 or more on an Adams F1 or F5.


Absolutely agree, Thomann prices for Carol Brass is fantastic but the Adams Sonic is only marginally more expensive and way less than the F1.

The Kanstul 930 cornet is tempting because I never see them second hand and it's lower than 900EUR used. I wanted to upgrade my flügel first but that cornet is very sexy and I don't have one.
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Shawnino
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 19, 2020 10:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just my experience but I see no difference in quality between the Carols and the Adams F-line.

If you happened to want Bauerfeind valves then of course you want the Adams, but I think the Carol valves are great.
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