• FAQ  • Search  • Memberlist  • Usergroups   • Register   • Profile  • Log in to check your private messages  • Log in 

Interesting.....


Goto page 1, 2  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    trumpetherald.com Forum Index -> The Lounge
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Brad361
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 16 Dec 2007
Posts: 7080
Location: Houston, TX.

PostPosted: Tue Oct 20, 2020 12:12 pm    Post subject: Interesting..... Reply with quote

.......

https://m.youtube.com/watch?fbclid=IwAR0Lhxpf_LqmIkYGzxT18MzqVb3qANdOv_QdXeDIOvvm-lAPk5wy3wyZO8A&feature=youtu.be&v=AsLHFwtpABU

Brad
_________________
When asked if he always sounds great:
"I always try, but not always, because the horn is merciless, unpredictable and traitorous." - Arturo Sandoval
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
JayKosta
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 24 Dec 2018
Posts: 3276
Location: Endwell NY USA

PostPosted: Tue Oct 20, 2020 12:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Likely true about 'air movement' (and especially 'COVID particles') NOT traveling or dispersing very far from playing wind instruments. But there might be a concern about the total amount of air being exhaled - my guess is that more air is exhaled by wind players (and singers) than from a similar number of non-speaking office workers or audience members.

And the air within an environment is not stationary - it does get mixed and disperse eventually.

Jay
_________________
Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Brad361
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 16 Dec 2007
Posts: 7080
Location: Houston, TX.

PostPosted: Wed Oct 21, 2020 6:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

JayKosta wrote:
Likely true about 'air movement' (and especially 'COVID particles') NOT traveling or dispersing very far from playing wind instruments. But there might be a concern about the total amount of air being exhaled - my guess is that more air is exhaled by wind players (and singers) than from a similar number of non-speaking office workers or audience members.

And the air within an environment is not stationary - it does get mixed and disperse eventually.

Jay


Maybe, but I would not think the amount of air expelled would be significant.

I think it comes down to risk. Life has risks, and speaking for myself only, I suspect my odds of dying in a car wreck on the way home from a gig are greater than from this 99.6% survivable illness, and I’m in the “high risk” (66) age group. How far do we take this? Maybe shut down the economy and cause widespread economic ruin? Oh wait....we did that.🙄

In my area, we have band kids with these covers on their horns and wearing masks at high school football games, while the players on the field are sweating, breathing heavily, expelling bodily fluids and smashing into each other. Doesn’t seem logical to me.

Brad
_________________
When asked if he always sounds great:
"I always try, but not always, because the horn is merciless, unpredictable and traitorous." - Arturo Sandoval
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
cgaiii
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 26 Jun 2017
Posts: 1541
Location: Virginia USA

PostPosted: Wed Oct 21, 2020 9:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have thought from the beginning that the restrictions on wind instruments have been ridiculous.
In addition to the information in the video, everyone knows that these instruments trap moisture rather than expelling it from the bell.

Of course the authorities that set the rules have no clue about how a wind instrument works.
_________________
Bb: Schilke X3L AS SP, Yamaha YTR-6335S
C: Schilke CXL, Kanstul 1510-2
Picc: Kanstul 920
Bb Bugle: Kanstul
Bb Pocket: Manchester Brass
Flugel: Taylor Standard
Bass Trumpet: BAC Custom
Natural Tr: Custom Haas replica by Nikolai Mänttäri Morales
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
kevin_soda
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 20 Jan 2015
Posts: 558
Location: Seattle

PostPosted: Wed Oct 21, 2020 2:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think the long and short of it is that trumpets are kind of like a vapor filter where any moisture in the air we breathe through the instrument condenses inside the instrument. That's why we have water keys, after all. I would guess that any air coming out the bell, regardless where and how far it goes, is dry and unable to carry virus molecules. BUT I just play trumpet, soooo...
_________________
Kevin
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Brad361
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 16 Dec 2007
Posts: 7080
Location: Houston, TX.

PostPosted: Wed Oct 21, 2020 2:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think both of you guys above are absolutely correct.

Brad
_________________
When asked if he always sounds great:
"I always try, but not always, because the horn is merciless, unpredictable and traitorous." - Arturo Sandoval
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
LittleRusty
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 11 Aug 2004
Posts: 12647
Location: Gardena, Ca

PostPosted: Wed Oct 21, 2020 2:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Brad361 wrote:
I think both of you guys above are absolutely correct.

Brad

I vote for partially correct.

The water that is let out by the water keys is going to be contaminated. And not all of the condensation gets removed. In some conditions I have experienced condensation on the inside of my bell, indicating that it made it at least that far and probably farther.

But the amount escaping the bell is probably minimal.

And then there is the issue with the air expelled from the corners of the mouth just prior to replenishing one's breath for the next phrase. The horn certainly doesn't filter that.

But any air being dispersed from an instrument is definitely not as contaminated or risky as "players on the field sweating, breathing heavily, expelling bodily fluids and smashing into each other."

That said I too miss playing, making money and the friendships shared in the section.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
nieuwguyski
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 06 Feb 2002
Posts: 2335
Location: Santa Cruz County, CA

PostPosted: Wed Oct 21, 2020 5:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The local community college here (yes, in radical Santa Cruz County) is currently offering music ensemble classes, albeit with social distancing. I was asked to fill a chair in the jazz ensemble, so every week I show up wearing a mask, have my temperature taken via scanner before entering the building, I have to set up my own chair and stand, and I sit in a 10X10 square taped onto the big theater stage. Obviously we don't have to wear masks while playing and bell covers aren't required, but I'm rehearsing in a group again.

That said, I don't expect to play in front of an audience anytime soon. It doesn't matter what any of us performers think, audiences are spooked. I'm all for recording sessions going on (not that I play recording sessions very often), but it doesn't matter how safe playing in a live group may be until enough people are willing to congregate to hear one.
_________________
J. Notso Nieuwguyski
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Brad361
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 16 Dec 2007
Posts: 7080
Location: Houston, TX.

PostPosted: Wed Oct 21, 2020 7:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

nieuwguyski wrote:
.....
That said, I don't expect to play in front of an audience anytime soon. It doesn't matter what any of us performers think, audiences are spooked. I'm all for recording sessions going on (not that I play recording sessions very often), but it doesn't matter how safe playing in a live group may be until enough people are willing to congregate to hear one.


Not in my area. My gigs (12 piece funk band) are almost back to normal, normal being about 4 times monthly. Almost no masks, not even suggestions of bell covers (in schools however, yes, I’m talking about gigs for adults), very few masks in the audiences, social distancing only somewhat observed, crowds are as large or larger than in the past.
I have opinions on masks and bell covers, but I’m avoiding getting political here.

Brad
_________________
When asked if he always sounds great:
"I always try, but not always, because the horn is merciless, unpredictable and traitorous." - Arturo Sandoval


Last edited by Brad361 on Thu Oct 22, 2020 6:38 am; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Bflatman
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 01 Nov 2016
Posts: 720

PostPosted: Thu Oct 22, 2020 1:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jay

I dont know how you play but for me the amount of air that I exhale during paying is far less than I do in normal breathing.

I normally breathe in for a couple of seconds then pause and then breathe out for a couple of seconds the total time is around 6 or 7 seconds per breath.

Normal breathing rate is stated to be 8 to 16 breaths per minute and that concurs with my experience.

For you during playing to exhale more than normal breathing you must be taking full breaths every 2 seconds or thereabouts.

I cannot play a coherent piece if I have to breathe in every 2 seconds I would be spending all my time breathing and not playing.

I aim to breathe 2 or 3 times a minute during playing and that is considerably less air use than in normal breathing.

Am I doing something wrong here am I supposed to take breaths every couple of seconds in playing.
_________________
Conn 80a Cornet
Boosey & Hawkes Emperor Trumpet
Olds Fullerton Special Trumpet
Selmer Invicta Trumpet
Yamaha YCR 2330II Cornet
Selmer Student Trumpet
Bohland and Fuchs peashooter Trumpet
Boosey and Hawkes Regent Cornet
Lark M4045 Cornet
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
JayKosta
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 24 Dec 2018
Posts: 3276
Location: Endwell NY USA

PostPosted: Thu Oct 22, 2020 5:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bflatman wrote:
Jay

I don't know how you play but for me the amount of air that I exhale during paying is far less than I do in normal breathing. ...

--------------------
Clarification - I was talking about the entire amount of air exhaled during the complete duration of a playing session - e.g. 30 - 45 minutes. Not just the amount of air blown thru the instrument.

My experience is that I get physically warmer during a playing session (including solo practice in my home), so I assume that indicates some added metabolism and a corresponding amount of respiration.
Simply holding the instrument in position, and the other body movements that happen during a session is additional work compared to sitting quietly.

Jay
_________________
Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
cgaiii
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 26 Jun 2017
Posts: 1541
Location: Virginia USA

PostPosted: Thu Oct 22, 2020 7:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here is a study of aerosols produced by wind instruments. The general conclusion is that most instruments do not pose any risk greater than talking. Trumpets get placed in the highest risk category, but still the results show aerosols only a littler higher than talking.
All of these results are quantity and particle size, not trajectory (which would actually be the most important). We all know that there is little velocity coming out of a trumpet bell (you put high speed air in through a small aperture and it comes out a much wider aperture -- has to slow down.)
Anyway, another point on the graph.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7492159/#appsec1
_________________
Bb: Schilke X3L AS SP, Yamaha YTR-6335S
C: Schilke CXL, Kanstul 1510-2
Picc: Kanstul 920
Bb Bugle: Kanstul
Bb Pocket: Manchester Brass
Flugel: Taylor Standard
Bass Trumpet: BAC Custom
Natural Tr: Custom Haas replica by Nikolai Mänttäri Morales
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
mm55
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 01 Jul 2013
Posts: 1410

PostPosted: Thu Oct 22, 2020 8:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

cgaiii wrote:
All of these results are quantity and particle size, not trajectory (which would actually be the most important). We all know that there is little velocity coming out of a trumpet bell (you put high speed air in through a small aperture and it comes out a much wider aperture -- has to slow down.)


The trajectory of aerosols is going to be driven much more by air currents than by the velocity coming out of the bell. The aerosols will be carried downwind, even if the trumpet bell is facing upwind. In very still air, simple diffusion would be more relevant than the air velocity from the bell.
_________________
'75 Bach Strad 180ML/37
'79 King Silver Flair
'07 Flip Oakes Wild Thing
'42 Selmer US
'90 Yamaha YTR6450S(C)
'12 Eastman ETR-540S (D/Eb)
'10 Carol CPT-300LR pkt
'89 Yamaha YCR2330S crnt
'13 CarolBrass CFL-6200-GSS-BG flg
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
cgaiii
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 26 Jun 2017
Posts: 1541
Location: Virginia USA

PostPosted: Thu Oct 22, 2020 8:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mm55 wrote:

The trajectory of aerosols is going to be driven much more by air currents than by the velocity coming out of the bell. The aerosols will be carried downwind, even if the trumpet bell is facing upwind. In very still air, simple diffusion would be more relevant than the air velocity from the bell.


Exactly!
_________________
Bb: Schilke X3L AS SP, Yamaha YTR-6335S
C: Schilke CXL, Kanstul 1510-2
Picc: Kanstul 920
Bb Bugle: Kanstul
Bb Pocket: Manchester Brass
Flugel: Taylor Standard
Bass Trumpet: BAC Custom
Natural Tr: Custom Haas replica by Nikolai Mänttäri Morales
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
WxJeff
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 10 Dec 2002
Posts: 2484
Location: Atlanta GA

PostPosted: Tue Dec 01, 2020 5:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just watched my alma mater (Florida State) women's basketball team play their first game of the season.

Only a couple times the pep band made it on camera, but ALL the brass instruments had covers over the bells.

<<<<sigh>>>> One of the reasons I enjoy attending the games in person when I can is to listen to an outstanding brass-centric pep band.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
blbaumgarn
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 26 Jul 2017
Posts: 705

PostPosted: Tue Dec 01, 2020 9:48 pm    Post subject: Interesting..... Reply with quote

It is not my desire to make fun of any aspect of the Covid-19 reality as it has touched everybody's life in the last year. but I don't think we will ever read a headline stating that "Mayberry Community Band" gives free concert, thousands are slain! I agree with the gentleman that likes to hear a good brass band at a game.
_________________
"There are two sides to a trumpeter's personality,
there is one that lives to lay waste to woodwinds and strings, leaving them lie blue and lifeless along a swath of destruction that is a
trumpeter's fury-then there is the dark side!" Irving Bush
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
deleted_user_687c31b
New Member


Joined: 03 Apr 1996
Posts: 0

PostPosted: Wed Dec 02, 2020 12:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

JayKosta wrote:
Clarification - I was talking about the entire amount of air exhaled during the complete duration of a playing session - e.g. 30 - 45 minutes. Not just the amount of air blown thru the instrument.

My experience is that I get physically warmer during a playing session (including solo practice in my home), so I assume that indicates some added metabolism and a corresponding amount of respiration.
Simply holding the instrument in position, and the other body movements that happen during a session is additional work compared to sitting quietly.

This is a good example of how many variables there are in real life scenarios'and why it is so hard to make accurate experiments that give meaningful data to draw conclusions from.

For all we know, the player's technique might affect the contamination risk as well.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
WxJeff
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 10 Dec 2002
Posts: 2484
Location: Atlanta GA

PostPosted: Wed Dec 02, 2020 7:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

hibidogrulez wrote:

This is a good example of how many variables there are in real life scenarios'and why it is so hard to make accurate experiments that give meaningful data to draw conclusions from.

For all we know, the player's technique might affect the contamination risk as well.


Well-stated. I have been working very hard this year to be respectful of others' opinions and practices during the pandemic because of just what you said.... there is a lot of data coming from a lot of places, much of it contradictory or inconclusive.

By this time into the event, however, I believe 19 to 22 year olds (minimal risk population) that are spread apart (established protocol) and significantly distanced (20+ yards/meters) from others in a large arena are presenting very little risk of contagious contact from air coming out of their musical instruments.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
WxJeff
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 10 Dec 2002
Posts: 2484
Location: Atlanta GA

PostPosted: Fri Dec 11, 2020 4:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Baton Rouge Symphony brass ensemble employing triple redundancy tonight. Socially distanced, covers over bells and masks while playing.

They also have their cases on stage next to their chairs, the reason for this escapes me.

They sound great though!! Very enjoyable performance.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
deleted_user_687c31b
New Member


Joined: 03 Apr 1996
Posts: 0

PostPosted: Fri Dec 11, 2020 11:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

WxJeff wrote:
They also have their cases on stage next to their chairs, the reason for this escapes me.

The local music union rules in the Netherlands also specify this, their reasoning being that the instrument can be put into the case directly after playing without cleaning, to minimize the risk of contaminated water from the instrument spreading across a larger area.

Basically, quarantine it right after playing and clean it at home.

Whether that's actually a sensible precaution I cannot say though.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    trumpetherald.com Forum Index -> The Lounge All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Goto page 1, 2  Next
Page 1 of 2

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group