Stuck 2nd Valve Slide

[Phoenix864]

Hi all,

I've been dealing with a slightly sticky upstroke on the 2nd valve of my horn. I ended up taking the horn to a tech who checked the alignment of the second valve, the alignment and roundness of the casing, and did some light lapping on the valve. After getting the horn back I've noticed that the 2nd valve slide appears to be stuck. Weirdly enough it looks to be stuck slightly out from full insertion, but I neither push the slide all the way into place nor remove it from the horn. Even stranger is that the top of the slide looks to be slightly further out than the bottom.

I've tired removing the valve to get some extra leverage on the slide and have tried putting a cloth through the slide for some extra leverage, but neither attempt has yielded any results. I've also let some valve oil soak into where the tubes meet between the slide and valve block, but unfortunately that has not helped either. The slide was working fine prior to taking the horn in, so I'm very surprised that this has popped up.

Is there anything else worth trying before hauling the horn off to another tech to have it taken care of?

I've also noticed a few other things that I'm slightly worried about. While the work does seem to have stopped the sticking of the valve, the valve now feels and sounds much more 'frictiony' and less smooth. While valves 1 and 3 slide into the casing super smoothly and silently, valve 2 doesn't feel nearly as smooth - it feels like it's making a bit of contact with something when inserting and cycling the valve.

I've also started to see some grey deposits coming out of the bottom caps for valves 1 and 3 (not really seeing them coming from valve 2). Is this something I should be additionally worried about? I'm considering holding off playing the horn until I can get someone else to look at it to avoid exacerbating any issues.

Any help is much appreciated.

Here are a few photos highlighting what's going on:

Grey debris from valve bottom caps:


A couple angles of the slide:

[Beyond16]

One conservative thing to try is this: pull fairly hard while twisting. Twist one way then twist the other way while pulling the whole time. Do 50 or more cycles this way. Next, try rocking the slide perpendicular to the legs while pulling. Do many cycles of rocking. Then do the same but parallel to the slide tubes. This method works because there may be a tiny movement too small to feel but enough to make progress. Beyond that, a soft cord or twill tape can be used to jerk it, but with the risk of pulling the soldered ferrules apart from the tubing.

[LittleRusty]

From your description I would guess that the horn wasn’t cleaned well after lapping. The gray could be the compound residue moving from the connecting tubes. The second valve crook is also probably stuck because of grit.

I would caution trying too much to resolve this yourself. If one leg loosens up you could distort or destroy the crook.

The shop should be able to resolve this but if it were me I would be hesitant to give them anymore work.

[Winghorn]

Run a strip of cloth between the tubes so that each of the ends sticks out about a foot. Holding the ends, give a series of short, sharp tugs. The slide should pop out, but make sure it does not fly off and hit something.

Steve

[OldSchoolEuph]

Step 1: before anything else, take the pistons out, caps off, clean out the casings as well as you can, and then clean the whole horn. Lapping compound will keep chewing away at the casing with every movement of the piston otherwise.

Step 2: take the horn to a better tech.

When valves go from working to not, something has happened. The casing did not magically grow more brass, so lapping, which is a technique used to artificially wear the casing to seat new tight valves, is just making the valves leak more until there is so much room they move free. It should be the action of last resort, and only to specifically address some other trauma that has deformed the casing, recognizing that the valves will not be as tight as they once were.

When did the slide last move free? Was it after you started having issues with the valve sticking, or before? That slide is indeed not sitting straight on either axis - it looks like it got smacked right about at the nib.

Take this horn to someone who will look for the cause of your initial issue, not just sand away metal till things slop around free - that tech will also get the slide free and determine the extent of repair needed there.
_________________
Ron Berndt
www.trumpet-history.com

2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20

[wilder]

[Phoenix864]

Thanks for all the advice - lots of good stuff there. It does look likely that some lapping compound wasn't cleaned off after the work - that would also explain why the slide got stuck in this weird position. I've had good experiences with this tech in the past so I'm very surprised that the horn ended up like this after the most recent work.

I do plan on taking it to a different tech to have it evaluated - I've only played the horn for an hour or two after the work, but the possibility of lapping compound remaining on the valve certainly does not make me feel good. There's also a few millimeter wide scuff on the inside bottom of the 2nd valve casing (I'm guessing from a mandrel clipping it), so it certainly looks like not everything went perfectly smoothly with the work.

OldSchoolEuph - I picked up the horn used. For the first month or so after getting the horn there was a bit of sticking across all three valves, but after that the valves seem to break-in to my habits and were running well enough. The 2nd valve slide has been working fine since the day I got the horn.

A while back I took the horn to the same tech that did the current repair to check the valve alignment. The tech made some tweaks and found a spacer under the 2nd valve stem that was causing it to sit at an angle. He adjusted the spacer setup so that the valve stem would no longer be angled. Since then, the second valve has been sticking slightly on the upstroke, which is what caused me to return to see if that could be remediated. Throughout this period the 2nd valve slide worked completely fine.

Since it sounds like the past work may have created some additional issues for the horn, I'm wondering if it would be best to leave the horn as-is (not playing it obviously) before taking it to another tech? In the event more substantial damage has occurred (such as notable wear on the 2nd valve due to lapping residue) I feel I would have an easier time backing up my complaints if another tech saw the situation firsthand. I'm guessing there shouldn't be any issues with leaving the horn like this for a week or two, right? Obviously I won't be playing it for that time.

Thanks for the help.

[OldSchoolEuph]

[mike ansberry]

[Crazy Finn]

You seem to have a lot of issues with your horns. That's unfortunate, and I'm sorry to hear that.

Get a good tech and good luck.
_________________
LA Benge 3X Bb Trumpet
Selmer Radial Bb Trumpet
Yamaha 6335S Bb Trumpet
Besson 709 Bb Trumpet
Bach 184L Bb Cornet
Yamaha 731 Bb Flugelhorn

[OldSchoolEuph]

[Crazy Finn]

[Phoenix864]

mike ansberry: Thanks for the info - yeah, unfortunately I didn't think about that when I pulled and valve and tried to remove the slide. It makes total sense though. I guess I'll just have to see how bad it is when I take the horn to a tech. Fortunately, I'm not one to really wail on a horn. It also doesn't look like the valve stem is rubbing on the valve cap.

OldSchoolEuph: I appreciate the advice - I gave the block and valves a clean up and fortunately found that nothing seemed to be sticking too badly. I'll ask the tech to have a closer look at the connecting tubes in the valve block to be sure that everything is out.

Crazy Finn/OldSchoolEuph: Yeah, my luck with horns doesn't seem to have been great. I definitely see where you're coming from (ie if everything is going wrong around you maybe you need to have a look a what you're doing).

Certainly some of my issues can be attributed to poor decision making (purchasing this horn could fall under that category), though others seem to be more related to poor luck - getting a swab stuck in a leadpipe just after lockdown started, having a highly regarded tech somehow botching what should have been straightforward work, etc.

Regardless, I think things are looking up once I get this horn sorted. My Schagerl Bb has been largely trouble-free for the near-year I've owned it, and has not been showing any signs of changing - once I get this horn get sorted (Larson C) I hope to have a good while of trouble-free performance.

My largest hurtle for now is just to find a good tech. I really though I had found "the one" with the tech who did this work - I've only heard good things about their work. But, after this debacle I guess I'll need to keep looking.

[Miketpt]

Try a hairdryer.

Mike

[LittleRusty]

[delano]

Heat can (sometimes) free a stuck slide.

[LittleRusty]

[OldSchoolEuph]