Joined: 27 Dec 2001 Posts: 7488 Location: Twin Cities, Minnesota
Posted: Thu Oct 15, 2020 6:50 pm Post subject:
Richard III wrote:
Yes, there is still a benefit to playing a cornet to keep your chops up, but it is not going to train you to play the trumpet.
I disagree, strongly.
Staying in practice on cornets allows me to pick up a trumpet a feel in great shape - the transition is an easy one.
The converse is not true - staying in practice on trumpets does not really help my cornet playing, the transition is much more difficult.
Anecdotally, at least, I don't know any serious players who find the opposite.
I've had several very serious players remark on this curious state of affairs - both those who are primarily trumpet players and those that are primarily cornet players.
I know this is tangential... But I certainly wouldn't worry that practicing on cornet would cause problems for trumpet playing.
I'm pretty much going to agree with TKSop here. I don't have a ton of difficulty going back and forth from cornet to trumpet. Cornet to trumpet, bit easier than the reverse, but no big deal either way for me - especially back when I played both at a higher level. _________________ LA Benge 3X Bb Trumpet
Selmer Radial Bb Trumpet
Yamaha 6335S Bb Trumpet
Besson 709 Bb Trumpet
Bach 184L Bb Cornet
Yamaha 731 Bb Flugelhorn
Joined: 06 Feb 2002 Posts: 2054 Location: Santa Cruz County, CA
Posted: Thu Oct 15, 2020 9:06 pm Post subject:
Long cornets are the natural tonal choice and it would be easy to suggest a long cornet but the OP wants a short cornet and that pushes him in the direction of dark tonality. for this reason an informed mouthpiece choice might resolve this enigma.
I never read that the OP wants a specific tonality -- just that he thinks a cornet-shaped horn will give him a sound he wants. The OP then posted a Youtube video of a fairly standard "American long cornet" being played in a trad jazz group with what sounds like a Bach-style trumpet-cup mouthpiece. My impression is that a long cornet would meet the OP's shape parameters and that he's a fan of the sound being produced in the video he linked to.
So (IMHO) the question is, what long cornet can sound like the video while playing as much like a trumpet as possible?
The Bach 181 suggestion seems entirely reasonable. I've played a couple of 181/37s and one early-Elkhart 181/43 that were really fun to play, and the Bach 181 design philosophy seems to be based on "easy for a trumpet player to double on." But let me suggest a cheaper option: A teacher I studied with once loaned me a cornet to work up an old "theme and variations" solo on. It was a Bach Mercedes model -- a copy of a Bach 181 with a two-piece bell, adjustable third-slide ring, and no tuning device on the first slide. My teacher was quite a gear-head and certainly could have bought a "nicer" cornet, but he thought this Mercedes played just as well as any Strad he'd tried.
One last thought: Trent Austin's shop used to sell the occasional cornet-with-a-trumpet-leadpipe conversion horn, built to address pretty much what the OP is asking about... I think. Maybe Austin Custom Brass could build another one. _________________ J. Notso Nieuwguyski
Perhaps some of the tangential advice and opinions – and the criticism of them – come from the faulty premise of the OP.
Looking for a particular bore size because it should be expected to play/feel/sound a certain way – on either trumpet or cornet – is deeply flawed. Bore size is probably the least important of the critical factors determining tone and “feel.” The same may be said about the wrap, for the most part (“I think a cornet wrap would give me a better sound” [than a pocket trumpet]). And, I’m not getting into the effect of mpc backbore and throat size on these same points.
On top of that, individual copies of identically-spec'd models can have playing characteristics that are more different between them than differences between two totally differing instruments (Yamaha and, probably others, pretty much excluded in that regard).
The overwhelming deluge of lack of knowledge/experience and misinformation from “experts” who come up on a Google or Youtube search is disheartening and problematic and only adds to the muddle of trumpet myth.
niewguyski I totally agree the OP has not declared any tonality desires.
However his stated wish to have a cornet shaped horn that will give a sound he wants sort of says that he does have a specific sound in mind that he wants.
So here we are, a specific sound is wanted and we have no idea what that sound is.
I think we need to know and take it from there. _________________ Conn 80a Cornet
Boosey & Hawkes Imperial Trumpet
Olds Fullerton Special Trumpet
Selmer Invicta Trumpet
Yamaha YCR 2330II Cornet
Selmer Student Trumpet
Bohland and Fuchs peashooter Trumpet
Boosey and Hawkes Regent Cornet
Lark M4045 Cornet
I’ve been away from the forum for a couple of weeks and I must thank you all for trying to help me.
But also, I’m quite amazed by how many layers and sub-topics emerged here, since I started this conversation. Some of these sub-topics include, for instance, the distinction between the concepts of “playing like a trumpet” and “sounding like a trumpet”, and even a confusion between what’s a long cornet and what’s a non-shepherd's crook cornet. And this is very interesting, but you don’t need to go that far.
Also, I am aware I’m usually the person who keeps overthinking about very subtle and small things regarding trumpets and equipment, in general. But, there is a lot of speculation over things I didn’t ask or things I didn’t say, and not much attention being payed to the things I did.
So, lets see what I did ask or say:
"If you need a cornet that plays like a trumpet, just buy a trumpet!"
I know, I know...
The reason I'm looking for that kind of instrument is to avoid buying a pocket trumpet. I'm looking for a compact wrap .460 bore instrument that plays and sounds great.
I'm considering both used and new instruments.
- I've mentioned NOT wanting to buy a pocket trumpet.
- I've mentioned I’m looking for a compact wrap .460 bore instrument that plays and sounds great, and maybe a cornet is what I’m looking for.
- I did NOT say I was looking for a short, shepherd's crook cornet. I have carefully chosen the words “compact wrap .460 bore instrument” and not "short cornet". So an “American style” cornet was always an option, considering that it's still shorter than a trumpet. A long cornet, on the other hand, as in a Conn 28A, won’t do the job because it’s not compact at all.
Wait, why not a pocket trumpet?
I think a cornet wrap would give me a better sound. I used to have a Manchester Brass pocket that I liked but the sound was nothing special.
There are more expensive pocket trumpets I'd consider but some of these models are more expensive than a good cornet.
Here ↑, I explained why I’m not looking for a pocket trumpet.
This exact cornet, at 3:07, would do the job.
It's a small "American-wrap" cornet that sounds like what I'm looking for:
Here ↑, I’ve admitted that giving you a reference of the sound I’m looking for would help a lot. And I’ve found a video that speaks for itself. And I’ve added “This exact cornet, at 3:07, would do the job”. I thank all of you who've helped ID this cornet (I’ll keep my eyes open for an Olds Standard cornet). But, for the rest of our conversation, I was hoping to take it from here. And that’s not what happened. My guess is that not everyone will feel like reading all posts, from the beginning, in a sequence, before posting a new answer to my question. ...and I do understand that, but maybe that’s what happened here.
Finally, I never mentioned I’d be looking for horns in Brazil. FYI, we do have a poor selection of horns here. Mostly intermediate Yamahas and Jupiters. But I’d never ask you guys to guess what horns would be available for me here.
My goal is to have a list of horns I’d be looking for in the future. Maybe one will show up here, in Brazil, maybe I’ll find one next time I travel to the US or to Europe.
There were some great suggestions posted here, like a Schilke A1, Bach 181, Puje, Conn Director, Bach Mercedes… And I thank all of you who have shared opinions and thoughts about my questions.
Joined: 24 Feb 2008 Posts: 2355 Location: vista ca
Posted: Mon Nov 09, 2020 10:38 am Post subject:
is that a martin committee in the video?
martin committee cornets really play like trumpets cuz all the tubes are trumpet tubes (or maybe more correctly the committee trumpet has more cornet like tubing...schilke wanted a cornet pipe for the committe)
in any event, if you slap a committee trumpet receiver on a committee cornet, the situation is exactly like the trumpet leadpipe, and its its way better than the cornet receiver. To me it looks like the trumpet came first, and then they took the trumpet pipe and bent to shape of the cornet wrap, then soldered a cornet receiver directly onto the trumpet pipe. The mismatch is huge. The small end is .352 just like the trumpet. With a cornet mouthpiece there is a sudden expansion from about .315 to .352 and the discontinuity is crazy. If you put the trumpet (committee ) receiver on everything fits perfectly and you get a normal committee gap, and the overall length to the rim of the mouthpiece even strays the same, so your main slide doesnt even change position. And it plays better, and martin committee cornets play pretty good anyway. That is your ticket right there _________________ Mouthpiece Maker
vintage Trumpet design enthusiast
Joined: 28 Feb 2015 Posts: 621 Location: Cincinnati
Posted: Mon Nov 09, 2020 12:49 pm Post subject:
I think the Bach cr300 would give you all you desire. And the even more compact cr310 would work easily as well. Yes they are student/intermediate horns but the do play great and I believe they are .460.
With a c cup they sound very trumpet-y _________________ a few different ones
Joined: 30 Aug 2017 Posts: 18 Location: Texas South Plains
Posted: Mon Nov 09, 2020 4:05 pm Post subject:
Is it an Olds Standard or a Super Recording. The underslung wrap kinda looks like my SR, can't see enough to tell if the valveset is offset.
But....... DAY-YUM, I wisht MY Olds Super Recording could sound THAT good. Must be my mouthpiece...... Always blame your equipment......... _________________ huntman10
Collector/Player of Fine (and not so fine) Brass Instruments including
Various Strads, Yammies, Al Hirt Courtois, Schilkes,
Selmer 25, Getzen Eternas, Kanstuls (920 Pic, CG)
Martin Custom Large Bore, Lots Olds!, Conns, etc.
I did not find this mentioned earlier in the thread, but in the early 2000's Leigh McKinney of Eclipse Trumpets made a short-wrapped trumpet he called the Equinox. I bought one of these in 2004 and still have it - it is the best trumpet overall that I have played. It is about the size of a cornet and definitely not a pocket trpt. I understand he made only a few of these, but I know of one that was available a couple of months ago.
Bob Schulz sat in with our band a couple of years ago when he was in town. He was playing an Olds “The Olds” cornet. That looks like the same one in this video. It was definitely more compact than my King Silversonic. Last I checked, Rich Ita has one for sale on his website.
Bob's cornet has a trumpet mouthpiece reciever on the leadpipe and is played with a trumpet mouthpiece..... _________________ Flip Oakes “Wild Thing Trumpets”
2559 Mottino Dr.
Oceanside, Ca. 92056-3421
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