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teongsfd
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Joined: 06 Oct 2003
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Location: The Netherlands
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 Posted: Wed Nov 25, 2020 2:39 am Post subject: Cutting broach to open throats |
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I have a question for mouthpiece makers/people who have experimented with opening up their own mouthpiece throats: Would a 5-sided cutting broach like this be useful in any way?
Cutting broach
Before somebody advises to bring the mouthpieces to a professional, I just would like to clarify that I have a bunch of cheap and unwanted (meaning I have trouble selling them) mouthpieces that I would like to experiment with, which is probably more economical to do it myself and learn something along the way. I also tried searching for numbered size straight flute hand reamers but I can't seem to find any listings of them in Europe, hence this question.
TIA for your answers!
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Ed Kennedy
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| Posted: Wed Nov 25, 2020 3:51 am Post subject: |
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Yep, Scott Laskey used them at Schilke's. Way back when, Vincent Bach included one with a mouthpiece. Since they are tapered, one can reduce the ratio of cylinder in the throat (if so desired.
Scott had one imbedded in a trombone blank so that when the blank bottomed on the rim of the mouthpiece the throat measurement was the desired dimension. |
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Divitt Trumpets
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Andy Cooper
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| Posted: Sun Dec 06, 2020 4:58 pm Post subject: |
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Maybe -
https://www.esslinger.com/five-sided-cutting-broaches-available-in-0-013-to-0-227-diameter-stub-15-to-80/
Rather than trying to buy them from the US - these are used in clock making - so do a search for watch, clock making tools in your area.
Five Sided Cutting Broaches
You will want sizes in the typical trumpet cornet range 3.70 to maybe 5.5 mm.
The result will be different from a ream and will shorten or eliminate any cylindrical portion of your mouthpiece throat. |
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Ed Kennedy
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| Posted: Sun Dec 06, 2020 8:11 pm Post subject: |
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| Divitt Trumpets wrote: | The standard way to open a throat is with a reamer. Drill bits don't cut accurate or round holes so they aren't recommend.
A tapered broach would work but that is different than what most people do when opening a throat. |
I use straight fluted reamers I have a set from 27 to 18. Opening with a straight reamer creates a cylindrical tunnel at the throat. Using a broach ameliorates the tunnel because the broach is tapered. You can put in the taper from either or both ends. Others have expounded on the relative merits of taper vs. tunnel. Scott Lasky had some ideas. I'd ask Carl Hammond about it. |
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trombahonker
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Joined: 30 Nov 2004
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Location: Atlanta
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| Posted: Sun Dec 06, 2020 8:58 pm Post subject: |
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The shape of the throat is important. Many mouthpiece makers today use straight reamers, and don't seem to be able to talk about how to shape the throat, either because they don't know, or don't see the point. They just chuck the straight reamer into a lather and open it. Virtually everyone who modifies mouthpieces does it this way, regardless that it is usually not the best and most balanced way. Probably because few players give the consistent feedback needed by someone to balance the mouthpiece.
That broach is the same concept as a "taper pin reamer". With a straight-fluted taper pin reamer, you can shape the throat from the backbore and/or the cup side. "taper pin" defines the rate of angle and is a standard. You can look up the correct # taper pin reamer for the size range of hole you need (so in this case, like #20-#30 drill, you can find a chart).
A straight reamer is also handy, as some mouthpiece need long cylindrical throats. It's hard to explain all the ways to do it. Generally, if you're doing a small modification (ie 27->25), a straight reamer will be fine. If you're going 27->23, you can wind up really compressing the octaves. Shortening the cylindrical section of the throat with the taper pin reamer, usually from the backbore side, can help open the octaves.
Be aware that taper pin reamer in the backbore also opens the backbore some, but that is usually more desirable than impacting the bottom of the cup by opening from the cup side.
Happy destruction!
~A
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Ed Kennedy
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| Posted: Mon Dec 07, 2020 5:26 am Post subject: |
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| trombahonker wrote: | The shape of the throat is important. Many mouthpiece makers today use straight reamers, and don't seem to be able to talk about how to shape the throat, either because they don't know, or don't see the point. They just chuck the straight reamer into a lather and open it. Virtually everyone who modifies mouthpieces does it this way, regardless that it is usually not the best and most balanced way. Probably because few players give the consistent feedback needed by someone to balance the mouthpiece.
That broach is the same concept as a "taper pin reamer". With a straight-fluted taper pin reamer, you can shape the throat from the backbore and/or the cup side. "taper pin" defines the rate of angle and is a standard. You can look up the correct # taper pin reamer for the size range of hole you need (so in this case, like #20-#30 drill, you can find a chart).
A straight reamer is also handy, as some mouthpiece need long cylindrical throats. It's hard to explain all the ways to do it. Generally, if you're doing a small modification (ie 27->25), a straight reamer will be fine. If you're going 27->23, you can wind up really compressing the octaves. Shortening the cylindrical section of the throat with the taper pin reamer, usually from the backbore side, can help open the octaves.
Be aware that taper pin reamer in the backbore also opens the backbore some, but that is usually more desirable than impacting the bottom of the cup by opening from the cup side.
Happy destruction!
~A |
Excellent info, very well stated. Thank you. Ed K |
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trombahonker
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Joined: 30 Nov 2004
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| Posted: Mon Dec 07, 2020 6:29 pm Post subject: |
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Ed, much is taken from conversations I had with Scott Laskey. I agree that Karl Hammond is knowledgeable on this, as is John Stork, both of whom are well acquainted with exacting custom work.
As I said above, but perhaps did not emphasize enough, one of the real controls in modifying mouthpieces is the feedback a player is able to give, and how consistent and valid that feedback is. Once you modify the mouthpiece, it’s hard to go back, so if you don’t have a player who can very surely tell you what the modification is doing to their playing, it’s kind of silly to work in this area of finesse. Especially in the age of “mail-in mouthpiece mods”!
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