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Most Influential Orchestral Player?


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Jerry
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 22, 2020 9:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just about all orchestras in North America use the C-Trumpet as their main axe. Many orchestras in North America use rotary trumpets instead when playing specific repertoire.

If we can point to one orchestra player that started these trends, I would say that is the most influential orchestra player.
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bunny
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 22, 2020 10:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

From a different angle, Vincent Bach's delivery of C trumpets to the Chicago Symphony in 1955 is an important milestone.
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mhenrikse
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 22, 2020 4:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Athos wrote:
I've enjoyed watching this thread develop, and seeing such great names bandied about. I will bring up two more orchestral players who could be argued to be most influential in today's orchestral world: Charlie Geyer and Barbara Butler. Both are excellent orchestral players, and their influence through their teaching careers has been truly extraordinary.


I would believe that Vincent Cichowicz was the actual influence on their playing style. Players claim Bud as their influence but none play like him. In Herseth's recordings I often hear: a large dynamic range, sometimes very short articulation, edge in his sound that is a large part of the excitement of his playing. The many orchestra players who studied with Geyer and Butler seem to all play lyrically, with little articulation, and always a nice round sound. For me, its not very Bud-like but i can see why they win orchestra jobs. Very solid section playing, even if they are the principal.
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Maid of the Mist
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 23, 2020 10:26 am    Post subject: Influential Orchestral Players Reply with quote

There were a few others that also made a lot of recordings that had influence on lots of young players coming up in the 70's. In addition to those already mentioned I'd like to add,

Bernie Adelstein. If you want examples, just find any Szell Cleveland recording and the Pierre Boulez Cleveland Rite of Spring. He played his Bach D trumpet and sounded spectacular.

Gilbert Johnson. Had tremendous ability to influence tone color on the instrument and to play gorgeous phrases. Best recorded examples; Ormandy Robert Russel Bennett Porgy and Bess Suite, Ormandy Gershwin Concerto in F, Ormandy Mahler 1st with first recording of "Blumine Mvt." Ormandy Pines of Rome.

Charles Schlueter. Took the orchestral trumpet in Boston in a totally new style direction with radical new equipment designs from Dave Monette. He also has a large number of successful and devoted students.
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AJCarter
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 23, 2020 11:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mhenrikse wrote:
The many orchestra players who studied with Geyer and Butler seem to all play lyrically, with little articulation, and always a nice round sound. For me, its not very Bud-like but i can see why they win orchestra jobs. Very solid section playing, even if they are the principal.


I have met and taken lessons from several Butler/Geyer students and I can tell you 100% there is plenty of articulation when they play. Not overly so, but I wouldn't go as far as saying "little" articulation.

They all sounded Fan-damn-tastic. Studying and working with them was, and always is a treat.

Actual playing and then the pedagogues who taught are all important in this discussion. Not quite sure there is a metric to name a "most" influential orchestral player.
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AJCarter
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 23, 2020 11:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ex-Trumpet wrote:

If you think Maurice Andre didn't influence orchestral players you're crazy! Not trying to be mean, but I know way too many orchestral players that were directly influenced by him.


I would be curious to know who cites MA as their main orchestral influence. FTR, that's not any kind of challenge to you, I would honestly like to know that!

I would however mostly agree with the other poster that while he influenced trumpet players in all walks, his influence on strictly orchestral playing is probably somewhat limited. I can see Bach trumpet parts being played in that style, but I can also see some conductors not liking it.
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Athos
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 24, 2020 4:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mhenrikse wrote:
Athos wrote:
I've enjoyed watching this thread develop, and seeing such great names bandied about. I will bring up two more orchestral players who could be argued to be most influential in today's orchestral world: Charlie Geyer and Barbara Butler. Both are excellent orchestral players, and their influence through their teaching careers has been truly extraordinary.


I would believe that Vincent Cichowicz was the actual influence on their playing style. Players claim Bud as their influence but none play like him. In Herseth's recordings I often hear: a large dynamic range, sometimes very short articulation, edge in his sound that is a large part of the excitement of his playing. The many orchestra players who studied with Geyer and Butler seem to all play lyrically, with little articulation, and always a nice round sound. For me, its not very Bud-like but i can see why they win orchestra jobs. Very solid section playing, even if they are the principal.


I admit to being puzzled by these comments. To me, Andrew McCandless, Matt Harding, and Tage Larsen are great players with very different sounds and approaches, who all studied with Barbara and Charlie at the same time. Karin Bliznik, Jeff Strong, Amy McCabe, and Carrie Schafer, likewise. I wouldn't characterize all of these artists as playing with "little articulation," unless it were called for. I'm also not sure whether "nice round sound" is a compliment.
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Steve A
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 24, 2020 5:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't mean to put words in anyone's mouth, but this latest turn in the discussion reminds me of the undercurrent here of complaining about the supposed blandness of many of today's leading players (not just Butler/Geyer students), compared to past players. Whether one likes it or not (personally, I think it's mostly a good change), there's clearly been a big shift in the prevailing ideas about the ideal sound and role of the trumpet in today's orchestras, compared to past eras.
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BBB1976
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 30, 2020 3:58 pm    Post subject: Most influential orchestral player? Reply with quote

Maurice Murphy - such an exciting sound!!!
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snichols
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 31, 2020 2:32 am    Post subject: Re: Most influential orchestral player? Reply with quote

BBB1976 wrote:
Maurice Murphy - such an exciting sound!!!


For real. Theme from Superman may not be my favorite JW soundtrack from a composition point of view, but I’ll listen to it over and over again just to hear MM’s sound/playing.
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AJCarter
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 31, 2020 6:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Steve A wrote:
I don't mean to put words in anyone's mouth, but this latest turn in the discussion reminds me of the undercurrent here of complaining about the supposed blandness of many of today's leading players (not just Butler/Geyer students), compared to past players. Whether one likes it or not (personally, I think it's mostly a good change), there's clearly been a big shift in the prevailing ideas about the ideal sound and role of the trumpet in today's orchestras, compared to past eras.


I think most people are equating not being "so loud as to overpower the ensemble" with blandness. I have sat next to several up and coming, and younger established players whether it has been on the job or in other settings and there is nothing "bland" about how they play or sound.

Some examples off the top of my head are Hunter Eberly in Detroit, Matt Ernst in Milwaukee, Conrad Jones in Indianapolis, and Mark Grisez in Columbus. All of them are just lights out fantastic and sound phenomenal, as well as being great people.
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hup_d_dup
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 05, 2020 6:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jerry wrote:
Just about all orchestras in North America use the C-Trumpet as their main axe. Many orchestras in North America use rotary trumpets instead when playing specific repertoire.

If we can point to one orchestra player that started these trends, I would say that is the most influential orchestra player.


The player who was most influential in the changeover to C trumpets was mentioned earlier in this thread.

Hup
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Jerry
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 05, 2020 8:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

hup_d_dup wrote:
Jerry wrote:
Just about all orchestras in North America use the C-Trumpet as their main axe. Many orchestras in North America use rotary trumpets instead when playing specific repertoire.

If we can point to one orchestra player that started these trends, I would say that is the most influential orchestra player.


The player who was most influential in the changeover to C trumpets was mentioned earlier in this thread.

Hup

That's my point.
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MannyLaureano
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 27, 2020 2:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There are two among the many influential players that stand out: Georges Mager and Max Schlossberg.

Max Schlossberg for his tremendous output of successful students who went on the shape of orchestral playing in America and beyond. The collection of Schlossberg's studies that Harry Freistadt put together is as standard as the Arban method.

Georges Mager is responsible for the embrace of the C trumpet in America and having produced great students, such as Bud Herseth and Bernie Adelstein. Herseth and Vacchiano made great use of the trumpet in C and influenced generations of player who now would be challenged to imagine using a Bb trumpet 90% of the time as the British and Russian trumpeters traditionally have, for example.
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