Orchestras using valve F/G trumpets for 1850-1900 literature

[scottfsmith]

It is well-known that from 1850-1900 it was common for some European orchestras to use valved F or G trumpets. Tarr's book for example has a section on this. I notice my local orchestra (Baltimore) uses rotary trumpets on certain repertory where that is historically more appropriate, and wondered if any orchestras were using low F/G trumpets for the 1850-1900 literature that was written for that instrument. The sound is a bit different, there are more low frequencies on the larger trumpet.

I expect the answer is "no" since the instruments themselves are not widely available, but Egger now makes a copy so there is at least the possibility today. See https://www.eggerinstruments.ch/index.php/en/historical-instruments/historical-trumpets/romantic-trumpets for the copy I am referring to. I expect some period instrument efforts have used these low valved instruments but have not seen a concrete example. There are quite a few romantic period instrument performances out there and I haven't been keeping much track of them I confess.
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Thane Standard Large Bb / Monette Unity B6-7M mpc
Lots of vintage trumpets and mouthpieces

[HaveTrumpetWillTravel]

Carolbrass is now advertising a set of slides that will turn your Bb into a G. I don't know how in-tune or useful it is as an instrument. I'd imagine because it's out of the mainstream now it's something you'd have to advocate for in a section and with the conductor, and only if you had a clear use for it.

[AJCarter]

The answer would definitely be no. HTWT is correct in saying it would be hard to push for that in a section and with an MD.

Rotary trumpets are mainly used on romantic period Germanic repertoire requiring a certain sound and blend, not as a substitute for the low F trumpets. I would suspect if anywhere in the world the low F horns would be used on occasion it would be in period specific ensembles, and probably more common in Europe than US.
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(List horns here)

[scottfsmith]

I guess I wasn't really expecting any modern orchestras to use them. How about period instrument orchestras? I can't find an example there but given that Egger makes copies I bet they were used.

PS for the curious, Tarr has a detailed article on the Romantic trumpet which is online - https://www.historicbrass.org/edocman/hbj-1993/HBSJ_1993_JL01_016_Tarr.pdf
Also there is a dissertation on the Wagner Ring with valved F trumpets here - https://aquila.usm.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=2340&context=dissertations
Here is an mp3 of an 1860's valved low trumpet: https://mimo-international.com/media/CM/AUDIO/CM0130361eCOAU000474001_13.mp3
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Thane Standard Large Bb / Monette Unity B6-7M mpc
Lots of vintage trumpets and mouthpieces

[Didymus]

I know about the romantic-era low-F trumpet. There also were low-Eb trumpets. I didn't know that there were low-G trumpets from that time. Does anybody have more information on the romantic low-G trumpet?
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Enjoy the journey.

[scottfsmith]

I view F and G interchangeably, it seems about half were in F and half were in G judging from historical samples of valved trumpets from the era. They all had an extensive collection of crooks so the open valve harmonics could align with the key (a throwback to the natural trumpet which was still in active use in that period in orchestras). Since they were using crooks there was not such a big difference between an F and a G, just use a bit bigger crook in the G trumpet to get the same pitch as the F trumpet. Note the above recording is from a G trumpet.

Here is a valved F trumpet in the Met, you can see how many crooks it has:


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Thane Standard Large Bb / Monette Unity B6-7M mpc
Lots of vintage trumpets and mouthpieces

[noamiller]

Seeing that 19th century was going through rapid experimentations and every instrument /country/ orchestra was completely individualized, it would be difficult to pull off a historical informed performance. That being said, I think it is worthwhile pursuit to experiment on how the old F and B-flat trumpet sections might have sounded like within a particular orchestra and particular repertoire. That would be a great lecture recital.

As far as period ensembles, I haven't seen a Romantic Era period orchestra (maybe there is one out there). There are Baroque and Classical, but obviously they wouldn't use these instruments. It would be neat to form a Romantic era orchestra that would play repertoire with different stages of the 19th century experimentations.

For the person who was inquiring about the G trumpet. Here's another example of the G trumpet, as a rotary trumpet:
https://emuseum.nmmusd.org/objects/8925/trumpet-g?ctx=68503507-d2ad-4e55-b2da-810e10e3460c&idx=7

[scottfsmith]

There is no period romantic orchestra, but the period classical orchestras have occasionally re-fitted to play romantic music with instruments of that period. Some conductors/orchestras include Immerseel, Gardiner, Norrington, Hanover Band, etc. Composers include Wagner, Berlioz, Brahms, Schumann, Dvorak, etc.

I don't think the challenge of historically performed performance is any harder for this later period, yes there was a lot of variation and change but there is also much better documentation compared to earlier periods. If you look at the articles I cited above you can see a lot was known about instruments used in various orchestras and what composers were writing for.

My guess of why there is not more of it is the "value added" is not as high, there is not as much difference. But take a listen to the recording I put above and you will have no doubt that it is not a modern Bb/C trumpet.

BTW here is Simon Rattle and the Orchestra of the Age of the Enlightenment doing Das Rheingold: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CUFWNKFajjA Right before the end you can see the trumpets, it looks like they are Bb/C rotaries. Plus a rotary flugelhorn. The instruments look mostly historical, e.g. the rotary valves are the old type, flutes are wooden, etc.
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Thane Standard Large Bb / Monette Unity B6-7M mpc
Lots of vintage trumpets and mouthpieces

[S Koons]

[trumpetera]

We use the F trumpet in my orchestra when playing Wagner. It is a natural step between the second trumpet (on Bb), and the bass trumpet (either in Eb or Bb depending on wether its a trumpet or trombone-based player handling the instrument.)

Wagners own idea was that the bass trumpet should be an Eb-instrument, but the bass trumpet-territory seems to be more and more invaded by trombonists nowadays...

Anyhow, we use it, and the colours of a trumpet section of three, where 1st is on C, 2:nd on Bb and 3:rd on F (like Wagner intended)can be quite spectacular.

As a curiosity, our F was built here in Sweden around 1865-70, and blends very well with our Schagerls.
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Principal trumpet Gothenburg Opera Orchestra
Bach LT 37 Bb (Mr. Findleys old)
Bach Mt Vernon 1957 Bb
Bach NY ML 1943 vintage Bb
Very old YTR-6335
Bach/Malone/Lechner C
Malone-Bach 229 C
H.Ganter Bb
Schagerl Wienna (older model) C
Parker Natural

[scottfsmith]

Sweet!! At least one orchestra is appreciating the tone colors
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Thane Standard Large Bb / Monette Unity B6-7M mpc
Lots of vintage trumpets and mouthpieces