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Trumpet maintenance



 
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Geo7084
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 01, 2021 4:56 pm    Post subject: Trumpet maintenance Reply with quote

I've maintained my horn well and have used the same shop for it and my saxes. I recently had it deep cleaned, new corks replaced, etc. I got it home and after playing it for a minute or two I noticed the horn smelled like gasoline! I've used Al Cass Fast oil for years with no problems and I've had the same shop deep clean my horn before, no problems. The odor subsided and a few days later I noticed when pulled my valves to oil them, they had a blackish grey residue. My horn is a vintage Olds with stainless or nickel valves, not sure as I've read they were made with stainless, and other articles that say nickel. Anyway. My valves have always looked clean and now I even have black residue on my tuning slide at times. The shop offered to clean the horn again, but why in the hell would I want to take it back to the same guys who messed up my horn?? Anyone ever had that happen?? Any advice?? Was it the valve oil they put on it??? I even had a bottle of Al Cass in my case when I took it in. I'm torqued off and will take it to another shop when I have a chance.
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HaveTrumpetWillTravel
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 01, 2021 5:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd give them the chance to make it right. At the least, they might be able to tell you what happened (mixed up two bottles, the sax guy did the cleaning wrong, etc.).

I had a trumpet I got that someone had used WD-40 on and it took a long time to get it totally clean. A couple of baths plus frequent oil changes helped. I'd wipe your valves and slides regularly and reapply oil/grease. It should be back to normal soon.
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Geo7084
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 01, 2021 8:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the advice. You're right. I should go back and at least see what they'll say and what they have to offer to remedy the situation. I've been wiping the vales and casing, but probably a good wash or two is in order. I am however curios to know what the heck they put on the valves. They are a reputable shop. Maybe they had an apprentice or a new guy do what they thought was a simple job. Anyway...appreciate it.
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wilder
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 02, 2021 1:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pretty sure its the valve oil they used. just have them clean it again and have them use your oil. jw
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Geo7084
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 02, 2021 8:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

They offered to clean it to my satisfaction. I purposely left a bottle of my usual valve oil in the case, but I guess I shouldn't have assumed they would use that. I am just curious as to what they used, and why?? I'm not kidding you, it smelled like high octane leaded gasoline...Stunk up the entire room!
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HaveTrumpetWillTravel
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 02, 2021 10:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

One of the repair pros might answer, but I know different oils (including gasoline) are sometimes used in cleaning. I could see different scenarios where they used a penetrating oil or other oil but then didn't clean thoroughly (or used the wrong rag, etc.). It is annoying. Scents seems like one of the hardest things to get out of a trumpet and they can really set in on a case. I was successful at getting the wd-40 smell out of my trumpet but the case still has an odor. Wishing you better luck...
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JWG
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 03, 2021 12:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Black residue on valves and collecting in bottom valve caps usually occurs due to metal dust and oil mixture (e.g., monel, brass, nickel, steel plus oil). That shop might have used a harsh chemical solvent and rougher-than-normal cloth to clean the valve pistons themselves and/or the cylinder walls of the casing, causing microscopic scratches on those surfaces.

Strong "gasoline" odors could come from a number of chemicals: Toulene and Acetone get commonly used as solvents to clean metals.

Smells that evaporate usually signal use of a petroleum solvent. If the smells persist (like WD-40), that often signals presence of plant or animal-derived substances that do not evaporate as quickly as petroleum-only products.

Check your valves, do they look "too pristine"? Perhaps the technician thought that your horn had oil residue build-up and used a solvent plus a rough cloth to dissolve and clean it.

Rather than using semi-synthetic, blended, or conventional lubrication products, I would suggest using full synthetic lubrication products (e.g., I use the "Ultra-Pure" family of products) to reduce residue build-up and nearly eliminate the need for chemical cleaning. I have played my horns for decades without any chemical cleaning.

Instead, I do the following: (1) I brush my teeth and rinse my mouth before playing (reduces bacteria and corrosive chemistry); (2) I use a lead pipe swab after playing (same reason); (3) I use a foam "spit ball" occasionally to push out debris from deep inside of horn; (4) when indicated by "spit ball" cleaning, flush the horn with warm water only, then re-spit-ball multiple times with spit-ball soaked in 2-3 drops of valve oil (to coat inner brass with oil to displace water from the flush); (5) when valves feel sluggish even after oiling, I wipe the outside of pistons and inside of cylinders with a soft oil cloth wetted with valve oil; (6) approximately annually, I completely disassemble valves to clean valve guides and guide slots with a soft old tooth brush (to remove black residue that makes it up into the guide area) and wash out black debris from inside of the valves (assuming your horn has modern hollow valve pistons); and (7), when tuning/valve slides feel sluggish, I use a jewelers polishing cloth (generally rougher than oil cloth) to remove old grease residue from the raw brass part of the slides then wash and re-grease.

I hope that you find my suggestions helpful.
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Geo7084
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 03, 2021 1:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My valves were pristine. I've maintained the horn well, and like you, don't play it with food debris in my mouth, keep it clean. I give it a good cleaning often and deep clean about every year and a half. First time I've ever had that problem. The valves looked shiny when I turned the horn it for the Chem clean, and two days after I got the horn back, the valves looked looked grimy. I plan to let them remedy it, and if that doesn't work I'll take my business elsewhere. I've taken all my instruments there for the last 30 years, so I hope it's a one off and not a sign that they are going downhill. Thanks for the advice!!
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FatSebastian
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PostPosted: Sat May 22, 2021 4:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Geo7084 wrote:
I plan to let them remedy it, and if that doesn't work I'll take my business elsewhere.
So I am a bit curious as to the outcome - did you ever return your horn and get it cleaned to your satisfaction, and/or find out how it became grimy after servicing?
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Geo7084
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PostPosted: Tue May 25, 2021 1:25 pm    Post subject: Trumpet maintenance Reply with quote

I was going to return it to have them remedy the situation, but then I thought about it, and I had a couple of other horns worked on there, saxophones, that were scratched up in a couple of places after being serviced and they never had a good explanation for that. I decided to take it to another shop and they did an excellent job. I'm a guy who is extremely loyal to a business that treats me right, but after a couple of other disappointments and their seemingly blasé attitude I made the switch to a shop that apparently cared more about my business. The new shop I went to told me that the other shop didn't clean the horn out properly after using whatever solvent they used. The residue that was left in the horn actually caused some discoloration on the valves, as I played the horn after picking it, before I noticed there was something wrong, but they polished them and they look and work just fine now.
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huntman10
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PostPosted: Tue May 25, 2021 7:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
from Geo7084
"My horn is a vintage Olds with stainless or nickel valves, not sure as I've read they were made with stainless, and other articles that say nickel."


I am pretty sure all the vintage F. E. Olds and Sons Brass pistons are brass plated with nickel. Steel pistons on trumpets were pretty rare until about 2000, I believe that Colicchio was one of the earlier builders to use them.

Conn had valves in the late 60's and into the '70's they called "Crysteel" valves, I don't know if they were ferric, brass, or nickel. They kind of look like stainless, but my 36B's pistons don't seem affected by a fairly strong magnet, but some stainless is not magnetic...
Quote:
\
"Crysteel Valves -Smooth as crystal and hard as steel- are another important contribution to better cornets and trumpets. Great advancement in precision manufacture makes this better valve possible. Inaccuracies inherent in old methods of manufacture make it necessary to leave the valve soft enough so inaccuracies can be worked out by hand lapping, or grinding. Conn has developed a new method of manufacture which is accurate to less than one ten-thousandth (.0001) of an inch and which eliminates these inaccuracies. Since it is not necessary to obtain accuracy of fit by hand lapping (since the valve is made accurate in the beginning), the CRYSTEEL valve can be made twice as hard as ordinary valves. The result is a better fitting, easier working valve and one that will wear much longer." Source: 1933 Conn catalog."


For what it is worth......
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huntman10
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Various Strads, Yammies, Al Hirt Courtois, Schilkes,
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blbaumgarn
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PostPosted: Tue May 25, 2021 7:51 pm    Post subject: trumpet maintenance Reply with quote

The person that talked about someone using WD-40 is correct. I have used penetrant to free frozen slides and stuff and any of those things, (and WD 40 has some penetrant) stick around and are tough to get out of there. I wish you luck getting the problem solved.
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FatSebastian
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Joined: 26 Apr 2021
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PostPosted: Thu May 27, 2021 6:21 am    Post subject: Re: Trumpet maintenance Reply with quote

Geo7084 wrote:
... I made the switch to a shop that apparently cared more about my business.

Thanks much for the courtesy of your reply, and glad to hear the situation eventually worked out.

HaveTrumpetWillTravel wrote:
I was successful at getting the wd-40 smell out of my trumpet but the case still has an odor.

I own a car whose previous owner was a heavy smoker, so much that the cloth headliner was slightly discolored from the smoke. It smelled really bad, especially if you left the car with the windows closed, and no amount of "airing out" would get rid of the odor. I read a trick online that one could clean the headliner with an ammonia-free foaming-action window / glass / mirror cleaner (e.g., Sprayway brand); a light application of the foam gently lifts embedded contaminants from the fabric to the surface so they can be wiped away with an absorbent cloth or hand towel. It worked - no more smell! YMMV
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dstpt
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PostPosted: Fri May 28, 2021 10:07 am    Post subject: Re: Trumpet maintenance Reply with quote

FatSebastian wrote:
...I own a car whose previous owner was a heavy smoker, so much that the cloth headliner was slightly discolored from the smoke. It smelled really bad, especially if you left the car with the windows closed, and no amount of "airing out" would get rid of the odor. I read a trick online that one could clean the headliner with an ammonia-free foaming-action window / glass / mirror cleaner (e.g., Sprayway brand); a light application of the foam gently lifts embedded contaminants from the fabric to the surface so they can be wiped away with an absorbent cloth or hand towel. It worked - no more smell! YMMV

Thanks for suggesting, FS! I found a remedy on YouTube last summer, after getting a case from a fellow who smokes cigars...a lot. It involved mixing witch hazel and pure lemon scent (essential oil). It worked fairly well, but the case didn't get entirely "fresh," so while at The Home Depot yesterday, I picked up a bottle of SprayAway, and man, that stuff works! The witch hazel and lemon oil are a little pricey, but the SprayAway was only about $3.00. Thank you, sir!
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Divitt Trumpets
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PostPosted: Fri May 28, 2021 11:37 am    Post subject: Re: Trumpet maintenance Reply with quote

Geo7084 wrote:
I was going to return it to have them remedy the situation, but then I thought about it, and I had a couple of other horns worked on there, saxophones, that were scratched up in a couple of places after being serviced and they never had a good explanation for that. I decided to take it to another shop and they did an excellent job. I'm a guy who is extremely loyal to a business that treats me right, but after a couple of other disappointments and their seemingly blasé attitude I made the switch to a shop that apparently cared more about my business. The new shop I went to told me that the other shop didn't clean the horn out properly after using whatever solvent they used. The residue that was left in the horn actually caused some discoloration on the valves, as I played the horn after picking it, before I noticed there was something wrong, but they polished them and they look and work just fine now.


You don't polish valves. That is a bad idea!
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Geo7084
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PostPosted: Mon May 31, 2021 12:28 pm    Post subject: Trumpet maintenance Reply with quote

Divitt Trumpets: I just assumed he polished the valves as they looked bright and new. I don't know if polished them or cleaned them with some solvent, but they work fine and the trumpet sounds great........Well, as great as I'm able to make it sound...Ha ha.
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