Yamaha 14C4 =Bach 5C or 3C?

trumpetera · Posted: Sun Oct 29, 2006 7:23 am Post subject: Yamaha 14C4 =Bach 5C or 3C?

I was fiddling around with mpc's today, and noticed that I get a bit clearer sound on a Bach 5C than the Yamaha 14C4 I've ben playing all the "legit" stuff on for the past 4 or so years (before that I used a 14D4)

It got me thinking about switching back over to Bach, but I don't want to change the rim diameter, it would effect all the other mpc's I' using (cornet, flugel, lead tpt etc)

Some comparison charts say the 5C is the equivilent (spelling?!

) to Yamaha 14C4, others say 3C.

Any knowledge out there? Actually-I'm sure there is!
Help!

trumpaholic · Posted: Sun Oct 29, 2006 7:56 am Post subject:

A Yamaha 14 and a Schilke rim both are 17.00 MM, a bach 3C is about 16.60, so a smaller inside diameter. A 1 1/2 C Bach rim would match up with the Yamaha 14, both being 17.00 MM. If your looking for a good Bach, get a small letters from the sixties early seventies. It should read... vincent bach corp. 3C or whatever size your looking for. The old Elkhart pieces feel much nicer and have better playing characteristics than the new ones.

trumpetera · Posted: Sun Oct 29, 2006 8:36 am Post subject:

trumpaholic · Posted: Sun Oct 29, 2006 8:57 am Post subject:

did you ever hear of quality control, pride of workmanship etc. When the Mt. vernon horns and mouthpieces were made, they either used better brass and a different rim contour, not sure, but for whatever reason, they feel and play wonderful. Invest some money in an old Bach and you will know why they are commanding the big bucks. I have been buying old Bach mouthpieces and getting the gold plated at Anderson Plating and reselling them. One thing to look for is no . (dot) after the word corp. Beware also of the Selmer rip off knock off pieces that are in small letters but do not have the word corp. This was a vane attempt to try and make sales from the highly popular and deservedly so old Mt. Vernon pieces and the early Elkhart pieces. The ones with no dot after corp are the earliest of the Elkhart pieces.

cheiden · Posted: Sun Oct 29, 2006 9:41 am Post subject:

I played on a 3C for a long time before switching around and ending up on a Yamaha 14B4. I too have to confess that the 3C has a cleaner sound to my ears. My problem with the 3C was I I felt is was too big and I wanted to try different sizes starting with cup sizes.

Regarding to relative size, there's a lot of dissagreement on how to measure a mouthpiece and there's no chance I'm going to resolve that here. But, per my teacher, the Yamaha 14 is quite close to the Bach 3. To my lips, this feels about right. If you want an equivalent to the Bach 1-1/4 you need to go up to the Yamaha 16.

Back to your dilema, I love the Bach 3C but none of the smaller Bach C cup pieces feel remotely similar. The popular Bach's (5C, 7C, 10-1/2C) all have very different rims and cups. Yamaha is much better in this regard so you can transition all the way down to an 11 and the piece will feel the same (except for diameter, of course) but none sound as clear as the Bach. Maybe the solution is to have Kanstul scan my favorite 3C then to machine one that's identical only smaller, something I've heard they do.

If you find a cheaper solution, let me know.

Mlockman · Posted: Sun Oct 29, 2006 11:03 am Post subject:

I used the 14C4 as my legit piece when I was using the 14A4A as my lead piece. I did not like the 14C4 at all. I tried to use it for a year. I think it takes a long time to get used to a MP.
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tommy t. · Posted: Sun Oct 29, 2006 11:27 am Post subject:

MrGBand · Posted: Mon Oct 30, 2006 3:39 am Post subject:

Schilke and Yamaha 14 rims are not the same.

I played on the Yamaha 14 rim for years and was very happy with the 14B4. The C4 only worked on certain horns for me. It felt a little stuffy like you are suggesting. If you work at it you can play the 14B4 as a crossover piece. If you were playing legit full time I would go with something different.

The 14 rim is also a little bigger than the Bach 3C. It is more in the 2 range, not quite a 1 1/2.
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trumpetera · Posted: Tue Oct 31, 2006 2:55 pm Post subject:

chopissimo · Posted: Wed Nov 01, 2006 9:02 am Post subject:

I found that it's very difficult to "compare" Yamaha and Bach mouthpieces, and not only because their rim shapes are different. Their published spec sheets are also confusing. Bach refers to a "cup diameter" while Yamaha lists "inner rim diameter". Therefore a 16mm "cup" from Bach is not at all the same as a 16mm "rim" from Yamaha. The only way to know the difference is to try the mouthpieces.
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trumpetera · Posted: Wed Nov 01, 2006 12:36 pm Post subject:

trumpetera · Posted: Wed Nov 01, 2006 12:42 pm Post subject:

Should of course be: You, my friend, are absolutely right!!!

Having a glass of wine as I type!

roynj · Heavyweight Member Joined: 19 Oct 2002 Posts: 2065

In general, I'd say that the Bach 3C is going to be more like your Yamaha 14, if not just a tad larger. Better choice might be a Laskey 65.

BobD · Posted: Wed Jan 06, 2021 7:02 pm Post subject:

Interesting most people feel the Yamaha 14 is bigger than a Bach 3C. I have a 14C4 and 14B4 which feel smaller than my Bach 3C. Not a lot smaller just a little smaller.
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HaveTrumpetWillTravel · Posted: Wed Jan 06, 2021 8:06 pm Post subject:

Something that was a surprise for me was that the 3c and 5c are very close in size. For 3, 5, and 7 they list it as 16.30, 16.25, and 16.2. By contrast the 1 is 17mm. I quite like the 5c. It's the rim I keep returning to after trying other mouthpieces. I'd try moving between your 5c and other mouthpieces and see how it compares to how you feel when moving between your yamaha and other mouthpieces.

etc-etc · Heavyweight Member Joined: 19 Jan 2008 Posts: 6187

A more objective comparison would be to scan the mouthpieces, or to take a modeling clay imprint.

wilder · Posted: Wed Jan 06, 2021 10:37 pm Post subject:

From my experience a Bach 5c is equal to a Schilke 12 rim. Yamahas are slightly smaller across the board rim to rim size compared to Schilke. jw

Ed Kennedy · Heavyweight Member Joined: 15 Jan 2005 Posts: 3187

The rim contour dictates the feel of the mouthpiece on your chops. Where is the high point, where is the bite. is it flat or rounded? Also each maker has an arbitrary (by necessity) point at which they measure the ID. The GR site has good info on this. The Reeves website comments on the functional equivalents of his rims to Bach.

BTW, check out the Reeves "Classic" series. the 3C is phenomenal. (and reasonably priced.)