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FRANCIS MAZIERS
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Joined: 04 Dec 2020
Posts: 25
Location: France
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 Posted: Thu Jan 07, 2021 2:26 am Post subject: FARKAS Embouchure |
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Hi all trumpeters,
I've just finish reading the Farkas book "The art of brass playing".
What are you thinking about the embouchure's setting and the way to stiffen the lips that he described in this book? Is it a good way to try playing like that? It seems to me that it takes a lot of effort to get higher pitches!
Thanks for your comments.
All the best.
Francis. |
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JayKosta
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Joined: 24 Dec 2018
Posts: 3298
Location: Endwell NY USA
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| Posted: Thu Jan 07, 2021 4:33 am Post subject: |
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Please give the page numbers and sections of the book that are of concern.
Farkas was a professional French horn player - I do not know how much experience he had with trumpet technique - but he was, and still is a respected teacher. And there are significant differences between French horn and trumpet usage.
A lot has changed in French horn embouchure thinking since Farkas, see for one example -
https://beforhorn.blogspot.com/2009/10/hello-and-thanks-for-stopping-by.html
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Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'. |
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FRANCIS MAZIERS
Regular Member
Joined: 04 Dec 2020
Posts: 25
Location: France
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| Posted: Thu Jan 07, 2021 2:41 pm Post subject: |
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| JayKosta wrote: | Please give the page numbers and sections of the book that are of concern.
Farkas was a professional French horn player - I do not know how much experience he had with trumpet technique - but he was, and still is a respected teacher. And there are significant differences between French horn and trumpet usage.
A lot has changed in French horn embouchure thinking since Farkas, see for one example -
https://beforhorn.blogspot.com/2009/10/hello-and-thanks-for-stopping-by.html |
Hi Jay,
The book has 65 pages. But to resume the chapter of “the lip aperture” see on page 44 why it is difficult and tiring for me: U shape, puckering while pointing the chin downward. For me it makes a lot of tension in the embouchure!
Otherwise what do you think of the BE that is described in this blog and do you use this technique?
Best regards.
Francis. |
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JayKosta
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Joined: 24 Dec 2018
Posts: 3298
Location: Endwell NY USA
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| Posted: Thu Jan 07, 2021 5:04 pm Post subject: |
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| FRANCIS MAZIERS wrote: |
Hi Jay,
The book has 65 pages. But to resume the chapter of “the lip aperture” see on page 44 why it is difficult and tiring for me: U shape, puckering while pointing the chin downward. For me it makes a lot of tension in the embouchure!
Otherwise what do you think of the BE that is described in this blog and do you use this technique?
Best regards.
Francis. |
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Francis,
The photo on p 44 (fig 26) is more aimed at French horn than trumpet. With French horn the mouthpiece is typically placed higher on the upper lip and makes a difference between trumpet and French horn embouchure.
note: I played French horn for many years before returning to trumpet.
I suggest you study the information on pp 7-10 about Jaw, mouthpiece angle, mouthpiece rim pressure, teeth and lip alignment.
I view the muscle tension in the embouchure as being a coordinated use of opposite forces to establish the aperture. Some muscles are used to close the lips together, and other muscles are used to pull the lips apart - the result being that the lips are tensioned to produce the desired note and are formed into an aperture that can vibrate when air passes thru the aperture. The Jaw muscles play a part in this by positioning the teeth, and also affects the lip tension.
I do not have experience with BALANCED EMBOUCHURE, but the forum here -
https://www.trumpetherald.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=29
should help answer your questions.
My 'impression' of BE is that it is not a specific embouchure 'type'. I think it is more of a 'training method' to develop the embouchure muscles, and to provide a way for the player learning what method of muscle usage works best for them.
Jay
_________________
Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'. |
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Wilktone
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 25 Aug 2002
Posts: 727
Location: Asheville, NC
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| Posted: Fri Jan 08, 2021 6:06 am Post subject: |
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Brass embouchure technique between different instruments all operate under the same fundamental principles. There's more difference in technique that happens due to the anatomical differences between players on the same instruments than between trumpet and French horn.
| Quote: | | But to resume the chapter of “the lip aperture” see on page 44 why it is difficult and tiring for me: U shape, puckering while pointing the chin downward. For me it makes a lot of tension in the embouchure! |
I would need to watch how you're playing in order to know for sure if you're playing correctly, but my best guess is that you're sensation of extra effort to play this way is because you're not used to using those specific muscles and they are weaker.
"The Art of Brass Playing" has some useful descriptions of embouchure technique, but it is very incomplete and also contains some inaccurate information. For example, Farkas's discussion of blowing the air straight into the shank of the mouthpiece is wrong (and in a later publication he acknowledges this). But his description of the "brass player face" is a pretty good description of where the effort should probably be concentrated. Firm corners and flat chin are, in my opinion, best in the long term.
Here is a link to a resource on brass embouchure technique that some of you may find useful. It's designed for teachers, not students or performers looking to diagnose their own chops, but you might get something out of it.
https://wilktone.com/?page_id=5619
Dave
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Denny Schreffler
Veteran Member
Joined: 14 Apr 2005
Posts: 390
Location: Tucson
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| Posted: Fri Jan 08, 2021 2:59 pm Post subject: Re: FARKAS Embouchure |
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| FRANCIS MAZIERS wrote: | Hi all trumpeters,
I've just finish reading the Farkas book "The art of brass playing".
What are you thinking about the embouchure's setting and the way to stiffen the lips that he described in this book? Is it a good way to try playing like that? It seems to me that it takes a lot of effort to get higher pitches!
Thanks for your comments.
All the best.
Francis. |
It's a way. Not the way. Informed teachers/players are not as strict about it as they were 50+ years ago. Sadly, many (most) current band directors and some highly-educated/"experienced" teachers don't recognize its non-universal application.
Browse the Balanced Embouchure forum.
And this ► https://www.hornmatters.com/2009/06/things-horn-teachers-say-iii/
-Denny |
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dlewis
New Member
Joined: 02 Jul 2010
Posts: 5
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| Posted: Wed Jan 13, 2021 5:46 pm Post subject: |
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| That book has been around for about 45 years. I read it when I was an under grad |
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Steve Hollahan
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 05 Oct 2005
Posts: 519
Location: Charlotte, NC
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| Posted: Mon Jan 25, 2021 7:16 am Post subject: Embouchure for trumpet |
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Arban always advised against changing embouchure of students. Once it is set, best to play to best level.
Check forward of Arban's method.
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Steve Hollahan
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JayKosta
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2018
Posts: 3298
Location: Endwell NY USA
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| Posted: Mon Jan 25, 2021 7:46 am Post subject: Re: Embouchure for trumpet |
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| Steve Hollahan wrote: | Arban always advised against changing embouchure of students. Once it is set, best to play to best level.
Check forward of Arban's method. |
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Do you (or others) agree with that method?
Even if the student has chosen an obviously poor embouchure?
To me it seems to be a 'cop-out' way of justifying not being able to TEACH a student to play better than whatever level they plateau at.
"Well dear student, that is just limit of your ability, it is not my fault that you cannot do better".
_________________
Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'. |
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