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Maurice Murphy on his Olds Recording.



 
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Vin DiBona
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 06, 2021 8:32 am    Post subject: Maurice Murphy on his Olds Recording. Reply with quote

This certainly could go in the Video area, but the use of the trumpets in the London Symphony is very interesting.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fr6eFP07uU0
Murphy on his Olds, the second on a Schilke, and the cornet part on a Schilke Eb.
There is some orchestral boo-boos here yet Previn leads a well paced performance.
I have some very strong reservations about the Eb trumpet, but others may like it.
Once you've heard Herseth do it, others don't quite make it.
R. Tomasek
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nltrumpet
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 06, 2021 9:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for sharing, very interesting performance. I too had things I liked and disliked about the sound of the Eb on the cornet part.
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Irving
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 06, 2021 9:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That was William Lang on the cornet part. You could tell that he went through the brass bands before he started playing in an orchestra. Lovely playing, lots of character. Mark my words, Previn's glasses will come back into style!
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Bicestertrumpeter
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 09, 2021 2:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

nltrumpet wrote:
Thanks for sharing, very interesting performance. I too had things I liked and disliked about the sound of the Eb on the cornet part.


Indeed but why play it on an Eb trumpet in the first place? It doesn't seem to make sense. Why not on.......a cornet?
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Crazy Finn
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 09, 2021 4:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bicestertrumpeter wrote:
nltrumpet wrote:
Thanks for sharing, very interesting performance. I too had things I liked and disliked about the sound of the Eb on the cornet part.


Indeed but why play it on an Eb trumpet in the first place? It doesn't seem to make sense. Why not on.......a cornet?

I'm not sure the Schilke Eb cornet existed, yet - or if it was, it was extremely new and there wasn't many of them. It looks like this video is from 1977.

I think the E3L trumpet came out in the late 60's and started to be used in some brass bands, because it didn't suck like the other Eb options.

I don't think the Eb Cornet was developed until right around when this video was from, the mid-late 70's.
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Vin DiBona
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 09, 2021 4:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here is my take.
Wrong horn. It is not difficult or taxing. It needs to be on a cornet or trumpet - Bb or C.
The vibrato completely out of place.
Here is Herseth setting the bar way up. Start it at 8:59.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pIrwglmYw3o&t=594s
There are other great recordings of this, but this one is still magic. Ormandy's with Phildelphia is outstanding as is the Szell Cleveland.
R. Tomasek
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dr_trumpet
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 09, 2021 5:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Crazy Finn wrote:
Bicestertrumpeter wrote:
nltrumpet wrote:
Thanks for sharing, very interesting performance. I too had things I liked and disliked about the sound of the Eb on the cornet part.


Indeed but why play it on an Eb trumpet in the first place? It doesn't seem to make sense. Why not on.......a cornet?

I'm not sure the Schilke Eb cornet existed, yet - or if it was, it was extremely new and there wasn't many of them. It looks like this video is from 1977.

I think the E3L trumpet came out in the late 60's and started to be used in some brass bands, because it didn't suck like the other Eb options.

I don't think the Eb Cornet was developed until right around when this video was from, the mid-late 70's.


The part is written for a Bb cornet, which with a composer like Prokofiev, who worked substantially with timbres in his orchestrations, implies a darker, richer tone quality. The heavy vibrato is more generally a trait of the British Brass Band tradition.

The E3L was first available in 1968

Re: the Eb cornet: Though no dates are present, the story on the Schilke Loyalist is:

"Howard Snell, the former principal player with the London Symphony, who earlier had pioneered the use of the Schilke four-valve E3L-4, was also present at the creation of the E flat cornet. Dave King, a former Snell student, tells the story of its origins:

"I was playing for a brass band called Desford Colliery which was conducted by Howard Snell. At this time the national brass band championships were sponsored by Boosey and Hawkes. Howard had always used a Schilke three-valve E flat trumpet in place of a soprano cornet as the tuning was much better. Boosey and Hawkes, fearing that this might catch on and harm sales of their own soprano (which was awful! ) banned the use of trumpets for the championship. Howard then phoned Mr. Schilke himself and asked him to build a soprano cornet. Schilke said that he had never tried but would have a go. Nothing more was heard until a year or so later, wrapped up in brown paper and packaging, arrived the little gold plated soprano cornet. It was the finest soprano cornet ever built and Schilke soon started selling one to every major band in the country."

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Bicestertrumpeter
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 10, 2021 3:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Vin DiBona wrote:
Here is my take.
Wrong horn. It is not difficult or taxing. It needs to be on a cornet or trumpet - Bb or C.
The vibrato completely out of place.
Here is Herseth setting the bar way up. Start it at 8:59.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pIrwglmYw3o&t=594s
There are other great recordings of this, but this one is still magic. Ormandy's with Phildelphia is outstanding as is the Szell Cleveland.
R. Tomasek


Is Herseth using a cornet here? He's certainly getting a warm full and very smooth sound, though there's plenty of reverb on the recording which adds fullness. It's more pleasing in some way's than Lang's Schilke Eb sound. He's also replaced vibrato with just a very light shimmer which sounds very modern compared to Willie Lang's reading, but is that what Prokofiev intended I wonder? The fact that he specified a cornet suggests he wanted a sort of folky village band sort of sound. Would not that imply vibrato? It would be interesting to hear a Russian orchestra's reading of this.
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Gabrieli
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 10, 2021 5:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Willie was a great player and a lovely guy but towards the end of his career he was no longer at his peak.

Here is a nice story about him:
https://brendanball.com/2012/11/18/legendary-trumpet-story-3/

John Georgiadis the renowned ex-leader of the London Symphony Orchestra has recently been coaching the strings of my Rochester Orchestra. Driving home after a rehearsal with John,my memory returned to a moment when John’s quick-wittedness as leader defused a potentially damaging relationship between an eminent guest conductor and the LSO.

The iconic trumpeter Willie Lang was given an extended and probably ‘hard time’ from the conductor after playing the lengthy off-stage flugel horn solo in Mahler’s 3rd Symphony in a style which didn’t appeal to this specific conductor. He went on a bit, to the point where Willie – who, as principal cornet of Black Dyke from an early age had been well trained in how to deal with conductors decided enough was enough. After he was allowed home early, Willie remarked as he left the rehearsal room “why don’t you f*** off you bald-headed Hungarian c***” – a broad yorkshire accent is not always readily understood by eastern europeans and so the conductor enquired of the leader “what did he say?” to which John immediately replied, “…He said, good night Maestro Solti”!
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Vin DiBona
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 10, 2021 6:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I do know the opening solo and its subsequent repeats were recorded with Herseth in a room just off stage, giving it the distance it needed.
I would assume he performed everything else on his usual C, but that is just a reasonably educated guess.
In an interview years later when they recorded it with Claudio Abbado, he mentions a cornet, so it is possible he used one on that recording.
During the Reiner recording, over the intercom, the producer thought he heard a mistake in the cornet part and asked Reiner if they could do it again.
Reiner looked at Herseth and Herseth replied "it was perfect". Reiner told the producer he should apologize to Mr. Herseth.
Herseth could make his C trumpet sound like anything he wanted.
It was not wise to mess with Solti. If Solti didn't like the way it was done, it probably wasn't done properly.
R. Tomasek
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Crazy Finn
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 10, 2021 7:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

nltrumpet wrote:
Thanks for sharing, very interesting performance. I too had things I liked and disliked about the sound of the Eb on the cornet part.

Bicestertrumpeter wrote:
Indeed but why play it on an Eb trumpet in the first place? It doesn't seem to make sense. Why not on.......a cornet?

Crazy Finn wrote:
I'm not sure the Schilke Eb cornet existed, yet - or if it was, it was extremely new and there wasn't many of them. It looks like this video is from 1977.

I think the E3L trumpet came out in the late 60's and started to be used in some brass bands, because it didn't suck like the other Eb options.

I don't think the Eb Cornet was developed until right around when this video was from, the mid-late 70's.


dr_trumpet wrote:

The E3L was first available in 1968

Re: the Eb cornet: Though no dates are present, the story on the Schilke Loyalist is:

"Howard Snell, the former principal player with the London Symphony, who earlier had pioneered the use of the Schilke four-valve E3L-4, was also present at the creation of the E flat cornet. Dave King, a former Snell student, tells the story of its origins:

"I was playing for a brass band called Desford Colliery which was conducted by Howard Snell. At this time the national brass band championships were sponsored by Boosey and Hawkes. Howard had always used a Schilke three-valve E flat trumpet in place of a soprano cornet as the tuning was much better. Boosey and Hawkes, fearing that this might catch on and harm sales of their own soprano (which was awful! ) banned the use of trumpets for the championship. Howard then phoned Mr. Schilke himself and asked him to build a soprano cornet. Schilke said that he had never tried but would have a go. Nothing more was heard until a year or so later, wrapped up in brown paper and packaging, arrived the little gold plated soprano cornet. It was the finest soprano cornet ever built and Schilke soon started selling one to every major band in the country."

FWIW, the same Schilke Loyalist cite claims that the E3L-4 mentioned above was introduced in 1974.
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Bicestertrumpeter
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2021 5:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Vin DiBona wrote:
I do know the opening solo and its subsequent repeats were recorded with Herseth in a room just off stage, giving it the distance it needed.
I would assume he performed everything else on his usual C, but that is just a reasonably educated guess.
In an interview years later when they recorded it with Claudio Abbado, he mentions a cornet, so it is possible he used one on that recording.
During the Reiner recording, over the intercom, the producer thought he heard a mistake in the cornet part and asked Reiner if they could do it again.
Reiner looked at Herseth and Herseth replied "it was perfect". Reiner told the producer he should apologize to Mr. Herseth.
Herseth could make his C trumpet sound like anything he wanted.
It was not wise to mess with Solti. If Solti didn't like the way it was done, it probably wasn't done properly.
R. Tomasek


That's interesting thanks. On the sound of trumpet v cornet there's an interesting anecdote in Harry Mortimer's long out of print autobiography. While principal trumpet at the Halle orchestra he bet the then conductor Sir Hamilton Harty that he couldn't distinguish between cornet and trumpet in a blindfold test (done behind a screen). He and I think a couple of others asserted they could, but they could not. Most of their guesses were wrong.
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Irving
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2021 6:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd be surprised if most conductors could distinguish between a trumpet and an oboe, behind closed doors.
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Steve A
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2021 7:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The classic percussionists' trick springs to mind, wherein conductors start harping on them to use different mallets, and they say "of course, Maestro", before putting down the mallets, shuffling around for a moment, then picking the same mallets up and playing again, at which point the conductor says, "Perfect! Always use those mallets here, please."
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gregplo
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2021 9:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Vin DiBona wrote:
Here is my take.
Wrong horn. It is not difficult or taxing. It needs to be on a cornet or trumpet - Bb or C.
The vibrato completely out of place.
Here is Herseth setting the bar way up. Start it at 8:59.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pIrwglmYw3o&t=594s
There are other great recordings of this, but this one is still magic. Ormandy's with Phildelphia is outstanding as is the Szell Cleveland.
R. Tomasek


I agree with this 100%...FWIW
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cheiden
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2021 2:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bicestertrumpeter wrote:
That's interesting thanks. On the sound of trumpet v cornet there's an interesting anecdote in Harry Mortimer's long out of print autobiography. While principal trumpet at the Halle orchestra he bet the then conductor Sir Hamilton Harty that he couldn't distinguish between cornet and trumpet in a blindfold test (done behind a screen). He and I think a couple of others asserted they could, but they could not. Most of their guesses were wrong.

One of the most expert brass gurus I've known has asserted that many of the perceived differences between the cornet and trumpet are more accurately ascribed to the mouthpiece.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2021 4:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cheiden wrote:

One of the most expert brass gurus I've known has asserted that many of the perceived differences between the cornet and trumpet are more accurately ascribed to the mouthpiece.


150 years ago the differences were far more apparent than they are today. Trumpets have been made more and more tapered, and cornets were made more and more cylindrical.

The start of a cornet leadpipe is still smaller in diameter than that of a trumpet, which means the taper from there to the valves is greater in a cornet. Aside from that, the throat of the bell is about the same on both (in general terms), meaning that the taper through that area of the instruments is very close to being the same (if not exactly).
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cheiden
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2021 3:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dr_trumpet wrote:
cheiden wrote:

One of the most expert brass gurus I've known has asserted that many of the perceived differences between the cornet and trumpet are more accurately ascribed to the mouthpiece.


150 years ago the differences were far more apparent than they are today. Trumpets have been made more and more tapered, and cornets were made more and more cylindrical.

The start of a cornet leadpipe is still smaller in diameter than that of a trumpet, which means the taper from there to the valves is greater in a cornet. Aside from that, the throat of the bell is about the same on both (in general terms), meaning that the taper through that area of the instruments is very close to being the same (if not exactly).

Here's the article from the aforementioned brass guru.
https://www.robbstewart.com/difference-between-trumpet-and-cornet
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 18, 2021 1:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Crazy Finn wrote:
nltrumpet wrote:
Thanks for sharing, very interesting performance. I too had things I liked and disliked about the sound of the Eb on the cornet part.

Bicestertrumpeter wrote:
Indeed but why play it on an Eb trumpet in the first place? It doesn't seem to make sense. Why not on.......a cornet?

Crazy Finn wrote:
I'm not sure the Schilke Eb cornet existed, yet - or if it was, it was extremely new and there wasn't many of them. It looks like this video is from 1977.

I think the E3L trumpet came out in the late 60's and started to be used in some brass bands, because it didn't suck like the other Eb options.

I don't think the Eb Cornet was developed until right around when this video was from, the mid-late 70's.


dr_trumpet wrote:

The E3L was first available in 1968

Re: the Eb cornet: Though no dates are present, the story on the Schilke Loyalist is:

"Howard Snell, the former principal player with the London Symphony, who earlier had pioneered the use of the Schilke four-valve E3L-4, was also present at the creation of the E flat cornet. Dave King, a former Snell student, tells the story of its origins:

"I was playing for a brass band called Desford Colliery which was conducted by Howard Snell. At this time the national brass band championships were sponsored by Boosey and Hawkes. Howard had always used a Schilke three-valve E flat trumpet in place of a soprano cornet as the tuning was much better. Boosey and Hawkes, fearing that this might catch on and harm sales of their own soprano (which was awful! ) banned the use of trumpets for the championship. Howard then phoned Mr. Schilke himself and asked him to build a soprano cornet. Schilke said that he had never tried but would have a go. Nothing more was heard until a year or so later, wrapped up in brown paper and packaging, arrived the little gold plated soprano cornet. It was the finest soprano cornet ever built and Schilke soon started selling one to every major band in the country."

FWIW, the same Schilke Loyalist cite claims that the E3L-4 mentioned above was introduced in 1974.


I'm a newbie so please be gentle!

I bought a Schilke D/Eb trumpet, interchangeable bells, from Giardinellis, NY. This was in August 1979. For whatever reason, it wasn't shipped to the UK until February 1980. I still have the receipt and packing note, so the dates are accurate.

The model is an E2L, which is not even listed in the Schilke loyalist. It has 3 valves. Pictures below. I suspect it may be a slightly larger bore than the E3L.

From the very little I can find out, only a handful of these were made. Estimates seem to average out at about 50.

I thought the E3L came out later. I don't recall seeing it in the Giardinelli catalogue. Anyone throw any light in this model?

https://imgshare.io/image/NfXKHd
https://imgshare.io/image/NfXu2p
https://imgshare.io/image/NfXGIH
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 18, 2021 2:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Vin DiBona wrote:
Here is my take.
Wrong horn. It is not difficult or taxing. It needs to be on a cornet or trumpet - Bb or C.
The vibrato completely out of place.
Here is Herseth setting the bar way up. Start it at 8:59.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pIrwglmYw3o&t=594s
There are other great recordings of this, but this one is still magic. Ormandy's with Phildelphia is outstanding as is the Szell Cleveland.
R. Tomasek


I disagree. Not with the fact that Herseth plays beautifully- he really does- but with the stating that he plays better than Mr. Lang.

They play differently. I love that. This is recorded when one could clearly hear where an orchestra came from. Different schools and characters.

a few years ago, I served as guest principal trumpet in one of the greater nordic orchestras. Depping in the orchestra at the same time was an austrian french horn player. He put words to it when he said "I studied in Wienna, so i fit in to that "school". My steady work is in a swedish orchestra, so I fit into that "school". I depped in american orchestras, and fitted into that "school". HEre I am, depping in this orchestra, and I fit into this "school". Where did all the character go?"

Most orchestras of today sound more or less the same in terms of playing style.

They didn't in 1977.

I love Mr. Langs playing, as I do Mr. Herseth's.

Listen to Langs phrasing...beautiful. And if I play like that when I'm at the age he looks to be at this recording, I'll be blissful.
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