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theslawdawg
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Joined: 13 Oct 2008
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Location: Waikiki, Hawaii
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 Posted: Wed Jan 13, 2021 10:00 am Post subject: |
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[/quote]
This is the first thread I have ever seen that suggests that student horns are designed to be easier to play for students. To my knowledge, they are all pretty basic designs - all of them are either .459 or .460 bore - the biggest difference is the care in which they were put together and the following QC - they are less expensive horns because they just aren't made as well. In fact, beginner students can't tell a difference, so where the rubber hits the road, it doesn't matter how well they play. Things like slotting aren't even a consideration for a younger player - they wouldn't know good slotting form bad slotting if it jumped up and bit them on the butt.
I can't imagine a single scenario where a kid goes from a basic beginner level trumpet to a Bach Strad, and the Strad is actually harder to play. I mean, seriously?
Gawd - the over-analysis on threads like this is mind boggling.[/quote]
YEP!!!
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OldSchoolEuph
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Joined: 07 Apr 2012
Posts: 1010
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| Posted: Wed Jan 13, 2021 10:14 am Post subject: |
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| trickg wrote: | | As for all of the other tripe - and yes, I'm going to call it tripe - about student horns being easier for students blah blah blah.... |
Sorry, I believe you are in error - which is unusual.
The student market came about as the result if a convergence of needs. Yes, one significant need was for a cheap horn in case thing didn't work out. But, another was for a horn that was better suited to the extremely limited abilities of the beginning player. Greater resistance to basically blast against until you learn control (accomplished easily when you don't spend money on efficiencies) and secure slotting to "find the note" head the list.
Interestingly, a Bach Strad ever since Selmer requested the redesign in 1962 has offered both those qualities, so the Bach advice here is sound (During Bach's time, his horns were looser - its why so many have ruined Mt. Vernon Bachs having Melk make 180s out of them - they think that its a defect if a Bach centers loosely - Bach thought the player should be responsible for that...)
There is such a thing as "too much horn" for a player's ability - and not just for beginners. I am a pretty lousy trumpet player, but I am no beginner. I prefer a horn with decent flexibility in centering so that I can follow the drifting pitch center of those I play alongside of without becoming exhausted. I also like a reasonably efficient (open) horn. But for Christmas Eve, needing a silver plated horn for the anti-viral properties to put minds at ease, I decided to use Byron Autrey's horn, a 1962 modified Schilke B2. At times the soaring tone is quite nice in the recording (clear tone, Byron put prototype balancers on his own horn first for himself and to show others), but at first when I was cold - YIKES. Schilke B series design, especially with an Autrey pipe, leaves the player entirely in control - left me in control....
There certainly is nothing wrong with the horn. This was what Byron was playing on. This horn has been in the hands of Ren Schilke, Doc, God knows who else. The horn does exactly what you tell it to. I am just not at that level.
Scaling down, the same is true for a beginner and early learner. You have to be careful to not advance the equipment beyond the player's ability to grow into (as opposed to give up in frustration).
Bach may be vanilla or boring or whatever for those who are enamored with the latest boutique brand, but it is solid, and has those student-like traits that make it the perfect bridge. Don't overlook an 8335 Yamaha or similar in that either as the same holds true.
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Ron Berndt
www.trumpet-history.com
2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1927 Conn 22B NYS
1957 Holton Model 27 Stratodyne
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson British Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20 |
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trickg
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Joined: 02 Jan 2002
Posts: 4885
Location: Glen Burnie, Maryland
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| Posted: Wed Jan 13, 2021 12:49 pm Post subject: |
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OSE, you're still trying to induce analysis paralysis - this girl isn't a rank beginner - she's got 4 years on the horn, and clearly she's good enough that Dad (who is also a musician, and therefore knows what he's listening to) thinks that an upgrade would do her some good.
By the time I had 4 years on the horn, I was a solid enough player that picking a pro-level horn like a Bach Strad (or the aforementioned 739T) wasn't going to hurt me, it was going to help me.
Regardless of whether I'm "correct" or not regarding student horns, it's irrelevant to this situation.
And....
So I don't wanna throw stones, but really? Playing silver plated due to anti-viral characteristics?
HAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAA!!!!!! 
By the way, I love how you name-dropped Byron Autrey - well played.
| Quote: | | ...I am a pretty lousy trumpet player, but I am no beginner. I prefer a horn with decent flexibility in centering so that I can follow the drifting pitch center of those I play alongside of without becoming exhausted. I also like a reasonably efficient (open) horn. But for Christmas Eve, needing a silver plated horn for the anti-viral properties to put minds at ease, I decided to use Byron Autrey's horn, a 1962 modified Schilke B2. At times the soaring tone is quite nice in the recording (clear tone, Byron put prototype balancers on his own horn first for himself and to show others), but at first when I was cold - YIKES. Schilke B series design, especially with an Autrey pipe, leaves the player entirely in control - left me in control.... |
You know, because I live in a high population area, I've had the opportunity to meet and play alongside of some of the folks I've "met" on the online trumpet player community.
I had one guy in my house talking about his preference for a rounded tuning slide vs the traditional squared slide, how the squared slide was too stuffy... 
His tone was so completely diffuse that I'm boggled at how he could have possibly told the difference.
There are a lot of guys who like to talk their game - this gear, that gear, etc. One of the things I've noted in my lifetime behind the horn is how once you're good and used to a particular horn, doing an impromptu switch to another instrument is usually a pretty bad idea because it can takes weeks to acclimate to another instrument to where you're really playing well with it.
You are admittedly "a pretty lousy trumpet player." Are you sure you should be weighing in on this discussion? Maybe you should leave it to the guys who really know how to play. 
And AGAIN, for the record, I'm RECOMMENDING the Bach 43. That's the horn she played and liked.
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Warburton 4SVW/KT
ACB 3B
"95% of the average 'weekend warrior's' problems will be solved by an additional 30 minutes of insightful practice." - PLP |
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OldSchoolEuph
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Joined: 07 Apr 2012
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| Posted: Wed Jan 13, 2021 1:30 pm Post subject: |
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| trickg wrote: | So I don't wanna throw stones, but really? Playing silver plated due to anti-viral characteristics?
HAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAA!!!!!! |
Yup - silver is listed as an effective anti-viral by CDC - against Ebola too. For whatever reason, church goers seem to have no fear of singing in a closed space with no masks, but they are terrified of brass players. If it avoids stress, I switch to silver. . . . . (the physics alone are worth a chuckle though)
| trickg wrote: | | One of the things I've noted in my lifetime behind the horn is how once you're good and used to a particular horn, doing an impromptu switch to another instrument is usually a pretty bad idea because it can takes weeks to acclimate to another instrument to where you're really playing well with it. |
Absolutely. I spent 3 weeks ahead of time getting to know the horn. I switch it up amongst my AW, my 22B early, my Stratodyne, and whatever horn I am checking out at the moment day to day, so I'm a little more adaptable - within certain bounds that in this case I stretched.
| trickg wrote: | | You are admittedly "a pretty lousy trumpet player." Are you sure you should be weighing in on this discussion? Maybe you should leave it to the guys who really know how to play. |
During the Cornet Conspiracy gathering in Elkhart back in 2017, Mark Metzler hosted everyone at his place one night and after a couple hours drooling over his shop set-up, I wound up on his porch with Dale Olson discussing my contention that the less skilled a play-tester is, the more sensitive to what they experience they will be if they have competence as a musician, just not necessarily as a trumpeter. I believe in Dale's thesis regarding preconceptions biasing observation, but I believe that with proper discipline it can be countered - and that it is much easier to do so if one lacks the skill to instantly, and more importantly unwittingly, adjust to minor issues. We eventually reached common ground in our discussion, but not before drawing in an audience whose names I wont bother you with that made it a tad intimidating to continue!
So, it is my contention that my weakness on this instrument (I am after all a euphonium player) strengthens my sensitivity and analytical ability with regard to equipment.
| trickg wrote: | | And AGAIN, for the record, I'm RECOMMENDING the Bach 43. That's the horn she played and liked. |
On that we agree solidly.
_________________
Ron Berndt
www.trumpet-history.com
2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1927 Conn 22B NYS
1957 Holton Model 27 Stratodyne
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson British Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20 |
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trickg
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Joined: 02 Jan 2002
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Location: Glen Burnie, Maryland
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| Posted: Wed Jan 13, 2021 2:10 pm Post subject: |
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Touching just briefly on the subject of silver plating and it being anti-viral, (so as to not derail this thread further) I know that silver is naturally anti-bacterial, and I have read some studies that talk about the efficacy of silver plating as an anti-viral, but isn't that kind of like trying to put a band-aid on an amputation? Not all of the air a person is blowing through a horn is going to come in contact with the silver plating.
I guess if it makes people more comfortable then it is what it is, but you and I seem to agree that there's unlikely to be any real discernible effect on just how much virus is probably getting into the air. 
On the subject of acclimating to a new horn, when I switched to my Schilke B6 off of a Bach Strad I'd been playing, two weeks in I thought I'd made a very costly blunder. I was a member here at the time, so I'm sure I posted about my issues with it. I HATED that horn for about an additional month or so, and then I finally got used to it.
It was even worse when I switched from the B6 to the Jupiter - that horn took me almost 2 months to acclimate to. I had a gig one night on it where absolutely nothing went right, but from that rock bottom place, it finally started to get better.
Sorry Dad - this is probably all pretty boring to you, but in some ways it would be like trying to acclimate to another size/weight of drum stick, or trying to get used to the sound of a new snare drum or set of cymbals, particularly crashes. (I'm a drummer too - I probably gig more drums than trumpet these days.)
_________________
Patrick Gleason - Jupiter 1600i Ingram
Warburton 4SVW/KT
ACB 3B
"95% of the average 'weekend warrior's' problems will be solved by an additional 30 minutes of insightful practice." - PLP |
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Crazy Finn
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Joined: 27 Dec 2001
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Location: Twin Cities, Minnesota
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| Posted: Wed Jan 13, 2021 2:18 pm Post subject: |
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Good grief.
(this isn't directed at anyone in particular, just how this thread has ... migrated)
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lurchbird
New Member
Joined: 06 Jan 2021
Posts: 5
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| Posted: Wed Jan 13, 2021 4:16 pm Post subject: |
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| trickg wrote: | | Sorry Dad - this is probably all pretty boring to you, but in some ways it would be like trying to acclimate to another size/weight of drum stick, or trying to get used to the sound of a new snare drum or set of cymbals, particularly crashes. |
| Crazy Finn wrote: | | Good grief. (this isn't directed at anyone in particular, just how this thread has ... migrated) |
Lot's a valuable information here! I don't think this post has strayed too much. I try to learn as much as I can about my kids' instruments of choice so that I can guide them in their selections, even if I can't play the darn things! And yes, I have mentioned to friends that this is a lot like the nuances of drums (you could probably write a book just on snares alone -- and I'm talking about the actual snares on the bottom head. Gut, brass, copper, steel, combinations of materials, the number of strands, tension, etc)
| trickg wrote: | this girl isn't a rank beginner - she's got 4 years on the horn, and clearly she's good enough that Dad (who is also a musician, and therefore knows what he's listening to) thinks that an upgrade would do her some good.
And AGAIN, for the record, I'm RECOMMENDING the Bach 43. That's the horn she played and liked. |
Thanks trickg. We are definitely leaning towards the 43, and this thread has put my mind at ease. We have two more appts to try out some new horns, and one appt to try out a used 43. I thought about WWBW open box items, but I don't know that I want to go through the hassle of shipping.
To be clear, it's not just me recommending that my daughter upgrade, it's her instructor and her current band directors (she is lead for both the top symphonic band and jazz - well, at least when they were playing together). She has told me that her current Yamaha advantage requires the use of her 3rd valve slide with playing D, Db, and low G (or something along those lines). She does not need to do that with the upgraded horns she tried out. So I also have to trust that she knows what she is talking about.
Thanks again everyone! This is a great group!
Mark |
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Crazy Finn
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Joined: 27 Dec 2001
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Location: Twin Cities, Minnesota
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| Posted: Wed Jan 13, 2021 6:29 pm Post subject: |
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| lurchbird wrote: | | Thanks trickg. We are definitely leaning towards the 43, and this thread has put my mind at ease. We have two more appts to try out some new horns, and one appt to try out a used 43. I thought about WWBW open box items, but I don't know that I want to go through the hassle of shipping. |
I'd stay away from WWBW.
I've order stuff from them over the course of 30 years. During the 90's, they were a seemingly solid mail order catalog provider in a pre-internet era. I never ordered anything significant from them, but they delivered what I did, timely, and in good order.
However, for the last 20 some years, they've been in constant ownership turnover, it seems - owned by various corporate conglomerates. They're just another web "brand" to go with Music123, Giardinelli (sigh), Guitar Center, and others. Basically, they're Amazon if Amazon cared about 5-10% as much as Amazon does about customer service - however much you think Amazon care about it.
A couple of fun stories....
- I once ordered a C trumpet and got a box of guitar picks, a capo, and some string.
- I once ordered a B-Stock, clearance Besson trumpet and it arrived, in a box. The trumpet was in a plastic bag. In a box. The DVD's I've ordered from Amazon came with 1000x as much packaging and packing.
Now, they refunded me the money from the C trumpet. Later I reordered it and it DID arrive. Also, the Besson had a dent in the bell bow, they give me a small reimbursement, because I wanted to keep it (it was a deal). But, you're rolling the dice every time you order from them. So, I wouldn't for this particular one.
Also, frankly, there are better places to order stuff from - Dillon Music, Austin Custom Brass, etc that actually carry stuff and have websites.
But, just go for the actual horn that your daughter played. Bachs are not all the same, not even close. One 43 won't necessarily play like another.
_________________
LA Benge 3X Bb Trumpet
Selmer Radial Bb Trumpet
Yamaha 6335S Bb Trumpet
Besson 709 Bb Trumpet
Bach 184L Bb Cornet
Yamaha 731 Bb Flugelhorn |
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jadickson
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HaveTrumpetWillTravel
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Location: East Asia
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| Posted: Thu Jan 14, 2021 5:56 pm Post subject: |
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I haven't ever played a 43 and had the sense it was more symphonic, but then today I was watching John Snell's interview for Bob Reeves with Bria Skonberg, and she said she's been on a 43 she picked out in 2010 at Dillon's. She said she also has a Selmer and Flip Oakes. Might be a good video to show your daughter.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RHrBqQ22amA |
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kehaulani
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Joined: 23 Mar 2003
Posts: 5108
Location: Hawai'i - Texas
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| Posted: Thu Jan 14, 2021 6:27 pm Post subject: |
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| Crazy Finn wrote: | | I thought about WWBW open box items, but I don't know that I want to go through the hassle of shipping. |
I'd stay away from WWBW. [/quote]
I have ordered a ton of high-end equipment (including saxes and flutes) from the U.S. to Germany and never had a problem over thirty years.
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"If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Charlie Parker
"Even if I could play like Wynton Marsalis, I wouldn't play like Wynton Marsalis."
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Vin DiBona
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| Posted: Fri Jan 15, 2021 2:57 pm Post subject: |
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If your daughter really likes the 43 and it is in your price range, buy it.
R. Tomasek |
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