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Bryant Jordan Veteran Member
Joined: 16 Aug 2015 Posts: 410 Location: Utah, USA
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Posted: Fri Jan 15, 2021 1:13 pm Post subject: Horn plays great sharp |
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Hi.
My Artisan plays fantastic, but especially when the tuning slide is pushed all the way in. Of course it’s way sharp and not possible to play like that, but it feels and sounds a little duller and is harder to play when the tuning slide is out (in tune).
Any ideas on what’s happening here? |
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LittleRusty Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Aug 2004 Posts: 12647 Location: Gardena, Ca
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Posted: Fri Jan 15, 2021 1:33 pm Post subject: |
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Does it sound duller on all notes, or just the ones where valves are used? I am not an expert, but it occurred to me that the length of the valve crooks might not be optimal. |
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Crazy Finn Heavyweight Member
Joined: 27 Dec 2001 Posts: 8331 Location: Twin Cities, Minnesota
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Posted: Fri Jan 15, 2021 2:39 pm Post subject: |
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Lol. It's a Bach. _________________ LA Benge 3X Bb Trumpet
Selmer Radial Bb Trumpet
Yamaha 6335S Bb Trumpet
Besson 709 Bb Trumpet
Bach 184L Bb Cornet
Yamaha 731 Bb Flugelhorn |
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dstpt Heavyweight Member
Joined: 14 Dec 2005 Posts: 1272
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Posted: Fri Jan 15, 2021 3:06 pm Post subject: |
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At least it plays great. Hahahaha!!!
No, really, I've heard of players using thicker grease on the tuning slide, which caused the horn to have more compression(?), or at least make a noticeable positive change in the blow, so it makes me wonder if something similar might be happening.
Or, it could be that you're naturally hearing center of pitch where it should be, and that you're "resting" on each pitch and thereby picking up more overtones.
Or it could be that this horn might be a good candidate to modify the bell to be tunable! |
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Crazy Finn Heavyweight Member
Joined: 27 Dec 2001 Posts: 8331 Location: Twin Cities, Minnesota
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Posted: Fri Jan 15, 2021 3:21 pm Post subject: Re: Horn plays great sharp |
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Bryant Jordan wrote: | Hi.
My Artisan plays fantastic, but especially when the tuning slide is pushed all the way in. Of course it’s way sharp and not possible to play like that, but it feels and sounds a little duller and is harder to play when the tuning slide is out (in tune).
Any ideas on what’s happening here? |
Honestly, most horns DO play better with the tuning slide in all the way. Usually, it's not in tune, then.
Ideally, it's fairly close and you can move the slide out about a 1/4 - 1/2 inch and it should be good. If it's a good horn, the difference in sound and playability will be negligible.
It's possible that you're playing on the high side of the pitch. It's possible that there are issues with the horn. Let's just say that I've played more than few Bachs that have had this problem. I haven't investigated further, because even without the pitch issues, I prefer other horns.
Maybe this is something that Osmun's blueprinting can help. _________________ LA Benge 3X Bb Trumpet
Selmer Radial Bb Trumpet
Yamaha 6335S Bb Trumpet
Besson 709 Bb Trumpet
Bach 184L Bb Cornet
Yamaha 731 Bb Flugelhorn |
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JayKosta Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2018 Posts: 3276 Location: Endwell NY USA
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Posted: Fri Jan 15, 2021 3:24 pm Post subject: |
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There have been experiments using tubular inserts with the same ID & OD of the tuning slide legs to 'fill the gap' that results from pulling the tuning slide.
I don't know of anyone who recommends it as being an accepted positive tweak, but it might be something you could investigate.
My understanding is that the inserts can be easily removed if found to not be helpful. And there isn't any external change. _________________ Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'. |
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LittleRusty Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Aug 2004 Posts: 12647 Location: Gardena, Ca
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Posted: Fri Jan 15, 2021 3:35 pm Post subject: |
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JayKosta wrote: | There have been experiments using tubular inserts with the same ID & OD of the tuning slide legs to 'fill the gap' that results from pulling the tuning slide.
I don't know of anyone who recommends it as being an accepted positive tweak, but it might be something you could investigate.
My understanding is that the inserts can be easily removed if found to not be helpful. And there isn't any external change. |
Victor Burguess, username NiViBri, sells a set of these for Bach. Here is an old thread about a giveaway by Victor. |
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lipshurt Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Feb 2008 Posts: 2641 Location: vista ca
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Posted: Fri Jan 15, 2021 3:39 pm Post subject: |
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Any horn I play that needs to out past 1/2 inch I make tube inserts for. It does exactly what you would think. It makes it play like the slide is in farther. I usually leave 1/4 inch of room to come in when it’s cold. And I have for sure needed to come all the way in for cold outdoor gigs. _________________ Mouthpiece Maker
vintage Trumpet design enthusiast
www.meeuwsenmouthpieces.com
www.youtube.com/lipshurt |
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LittleRusty Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Aug 2004 Posts: 12647 Location: Gardena, Ca
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Posted: Fri Jan 15, 2021 3:40 pm Post subject: Re: Horn plays great sharp |
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Crazy Finn wrote: | Honestly, most horns DO play better with the tuning slide in all the way. Usually, it's not in tune, then. |
I always thought that horns are designed to play best when the slides pulled to be at A440. |
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Bryant Jordan Veteran Member
Joined: 16 Aug 2015 Posts: 410 Location: Utah, USA
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Posted: Fri Jan 15, 2021 3:58 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks for the help everyone.
I'll look at those inserts. And I do tend to play a little higher on the pitch (something I've been drilling in practice).
Like I said, it still plays GREAT, but there's more I can get out of it.
I'll try your suggestions and let you know what happens.
Thanks again. |
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Bryant Jordan Veteran Member
Joined: 16 Aug 2015 Posts: 410 Location: Utah, USA
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Posted: Fri Jan 15, 2021 4:00 pm Post subject: |
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lipshurt wrote: | Any horn I play that needs to out past 1/2 inch I make tube inserts for. It does exactly what you would think. It makes it play like the slide is in farther. I usually leave 1/4 inch of room to come in when it’s cold. And I have for sure needed to come all the way in for cold outdoor gigs. |
Any suggestions where I can find inserts for my Artisan? |
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trpt2 Veteran Member
Joined: 16 Jun 2003 Posts: 165 Location: Philadelphia
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Posted: Fri Jan 15, 2021 4:24 pm Post subject: |
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Yes, inserts . I've always seemingly had to play with my slide further out than others..(I think it was 10 years in Montreal, where the pitch was A=442 and climbing..) years ago, Bob Malone looked at where my slide was, and basically said, how can you play this ? 😅.
He put inserts in, really just pieces of cut down tuning slide.
Made a huge difference. Worth a try ! |
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Bryant Jordan Veteran Member
Joined: 16 Aug 2015 Posts: 410 Location: Utah, USA
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Posted: Fri Jan 15, 2021 5:20 pm Post subject: |
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I sent a PM to Victor Burguess through TH. |
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Bryant Jordan Veteran Member
Joined: 16 Aug 2015 Posts: 410 Location: Utah, USA
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Posted: Fri Jan 15, 2021 7:00 pm Post subject: |
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If I don’t get a response, does anyone know who else makes or sells inserts? |
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Goby Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Jun 2017 Posts: 641
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Posted: Fri Jan 15, 2021 7:03 pm Post subject: |
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You could probably ask James Becker, MK Drawing, and Josh Landress |
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Bryant Jordan Veteran Member
Joined: 16 Aug 2015 Posts: 410 Location: Utah, USA
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Posted: Fri Jan 15, 2021 8:33 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks!
Victor replied to my message, and I talked to Jason Harrelson.
They both recommended MK Drawing.
I'll post an update soon.
Thanks all for the input. |
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LittleRusty Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Aug 2004 Posts: 12647 Location: Gardena, Ca
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Posted: Fri Jan 15, 2021 8:37 pm Post subject: |
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Bryant Jordan wrote: | Thanks!
Victor replied to my message, and I talked to Jason Harrelson.
They both recommended MK Drawing.
I'll post an update soon.
Thanks all for the input. |
Great news they responded so quickly.
Please follow up with the things you try and how they work for you. Some of us get curious. |
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JayKosta Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2018 Posts: 3276 Location: Endwell NY USA
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Posted: Sat Jan 16, 2021 7:56 am Post subject: |
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Another thought is if the inserts don't resolve the issue, try some DIY easy checks of valve alignment - by playing, not looking or measuring.
Test the 'sound' with valve just slightly depressed, and again not quite at bottom of full down.
Unscrew the valve button a bit to allow the piston to travel further down.
Unscrew the top valve cap a bit and pull the piston UP slightly.
I have a student model Blessing that needs quite a bit of tuning slide pull, and am curious if inserts make a difference for you. I haven't tried them. My horn sounds OK as is. _________________ Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'. |
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Bryant Jordan Veteran Member
Joined: 16 Aug 2015 Posts: 410 Location: Utah, USA
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Posted: Sat Jan 16, 2021 9:56 am Post subject: |
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JayKosta wrote: | Another thought is if the inserts don't resolve the issue, try some DIY easy checks of valve alignment - by playing, not looking or measuring.
Test the 'sound' with valve just slightly depressed, and again not quite at bottom of full down.
Unscrew the valve button a bit to allow the piston to travel further down.
Unscrew the top valve cap a bit and pull the piston UP slightly. |
Will do. I’ll post an update soon. |
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benlewis Heavyweight Member
Joined: 21 Jan 2004 Posts: 1007 Location: Memphis, TN
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Posted: Sat Jan 16, 2021 10:22 am Post subject: |
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I originally wondered if it might be a gap issue...
HTH
Ben |
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