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Yamaha Heavywall trumpets



 
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mvbach37
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 28, 2021 1:31 pm    Post subject: Yamaha Heavywall trumpets Reply with quote

I've got a couple of Yamaha Heavywall or heavy wall trumpets. I don't know much about the Heavywalls. Anyone know about them, I just know from what I've read on the net that they were built as a heavier trumpet and somewhat like a Bach and the "heavier is better" thing. They look a lot like the 2006 Xeno YTR-8335 I have. The trumpets play all right but not impressive to me. The models are a YTR-6335H and YTR-6345H. Valves have a "dead" feel and I've never been impressed with Yamaha valves but their latest version of the synthetic oils in the 2 oz. bottle is very impressive. Anyone want to share heir thoughts? The horns I have were built in 1990 and 1993 from what Yamaha told me when I wrote to them with the serial numbers.
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JayKosta
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 28, 2021 1:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A start would be you telling what trumpets you do like, and for what type of playing. Everyone has their own opinions about how a trumpet seems to sound and feel to them.
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Crazy Finn
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 28, 2021 3:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Initially, Yamaha trumpets were heavily influenced by Schilke, as Reynold himself designed or helped design the early Yamaha models. These are the models that are 3 digits long. These are, by all accounts, excellent playing instruments.

These did well, but it was clear by the mid-80's that Bach was still producing the most popular Bb trumpets. Yamaha began to produce instruments that were more in line with the Bach sound or idea than the Schilke ones. They had made excellent inroads in the student instrument market and producing a professional instrument that could compete more directly with the Bach Strad would probably be a good move.

This lead to 6335 and 6345 model trumpets and their respective C trumpets. These were introduced in the mid-1980's. One can debate how much of the Schilke influence remained in these, but as the owner of a 6335, it felt lighter and more responsive than the typical Strad (of which I had and have played hundreds of examples). Around 1990, they introduced the "Heavy Wall" series, which were basically the same instruments, but with a heavier bell than the now "standard weight" models. These models were denoted by a "H" following the model number - 6345H, for example is a Bb trumpet, large bore, with the "Heavy Wall" bell.

I haven't played these models a ton, but they seem to have the same even response and good intonation of the standard weight models, just less flexible and responsive. I'm sure the sound was a bit different with the heavier bell, though I can't exactly say how.

After several years, the "Heavy Wall" models were updated to a second generation, the "Mark II." These were denoted by a roman numeral "II" after the "H" in the model, such as 6345HII. These seemed to be pretty popular. I also played a few of these, they seemed similar to the previous Heavy Wall, a bit more resistant and inflexible - closer to a Bach Strad, perhaps. I don't particularly care for those characteristics and am not a big fan of the Strad, in general. Still, if you were, you probably like these. Around the year 2000, Yamaha introduced the Xeno line to replace the "Mark II" 6000 series - a line which has been updated to a second generation but still continues today. I thought the Xenos were solid horns, but the second generation Xenos I've played were excellent, better than the original Xenos, Mark II, and Heavy Walls, in my estimation.

The original "Standard Weight" 6-series Bb trumpets, the 6335 and the 6345G (Gold Brass bell) are still made today, unlike their H and II counterparts.
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mvbach37
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 29, 2021 5:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you for your info on the Heavy walls. The trumpets I do like are most of the Bach, the older ones like the Mt. Vernons and New Yorks and I do like the Schilke S32 series trumpet, especially how easily they play in the high range above high C. A few years ago I really was drawn to the Shires, mainly the AF and A series respectively because they played so easily in the high range above the high C and the valve were pretty good as are the Schilkes. I simply don't have the money right now, otherwise I would go after a Shires. As far as valves, I have always thought the Yamahas had a "dead" feel, even some Bach's I have had kind of a dead feel but not so much. Maybe if I experimented with different springs I could get the Yamahas to have a feel that I like. Valves on them are very smooth, just don't have that lively springy feel with soft jumpy springy feel and response. For the mouthpiece I use is the Bach Artisan 3C and occasionally the 5C. My second choices would be the Shires 3C and 5C mouthpieces. Loved the Artisan 3C in the Shires A and AF.
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Mzony
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 30, 2021 1:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Is the engraving of the information on the top side of the bell or the bottom?
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mvbach37
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 30, 2021 2:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

On both trumpets, it says Yamaha Japan on the leadpipe. On the second valve it says YTR-6335H and YTR-6345H respectively on both trumpets. There is no engraving that I can tell on the bell of either trumpet. It also says Yamaha Japan toward the bottom of the second valve casing opposite the side with the serial number. I can't see anything where it says Heavy Wall.
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JayKosta
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 30, 2021 3:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mvbach37 wrote:
... There is no engraving that I can tell on the bell of either trumpet. ...

-----------------------------------
I think that a while ago Yamaha didn't engrave bells because they thought it negatively affected the sound.
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Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'.
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Winghorn
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 30, 2021 3:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mvbach37-

Trumpet valves are not supposed to bounce as that would affect the air steam. In my opinion, a valve should go down and come up with absolutely no extraneous movement.

If you want the bounce, I would imagine weak valve springs and more flexible "felts" would help.

It's all good fun, innit?
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Crazy Finn
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 30, 2021 3:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mvbach37 wrote:
On both trumpets, it says Yamaha Japan on the leadpipe. On the second valve it says YTR-6335H and YTR-6345H respectively on both trumpets. There is no engraving that I can tell on the bell of either trumpet. It also says Yamaha Japan toward the bottom of the second valve casing opposite the side with the serial number. I can't see anything where it says Heavy Wall.

These are the first generation "Heavy Wall" trumpets. The "Mark II" models in the mid 1990's came after these.

Yamaha didn't engrave the bells at this time.
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Tony Scodwell
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 31, 2021 8:52 am    Post subject: Yamaha heavy bells Reply with quote

I was buying some bells from Holton in the late eighties and I was told they were making the Yamaha heavy bells.

Tony Scodwell
www.scodwellusa.com
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Crazy Finn
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 31, 2021 4:50 pm    Post subject: Re: Yamaha heavy bells Reply with quote

Tony Scodwell wrote:
I was buying some bells from Holton in the late eighties and I was told they were making the Yamaha heavy bells.

Tony Scodwell
www.scodwellusa.com

That's interesting.
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dr_trumpet
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 31, 2021 5:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I love what a Larson leadpipe did for my Yamaha 6445HS. The only difference between the two horns you cite is the bore. I found the large bore Bb at this time seemed to work better than the medium large bore, but worked best with a reversed leadpipe. We have several at school that students use, and without fail, the ones with a reversed leadpipe play better, more brilliant in tone and sound with greater depth.

I have also found that these horn seem to respond better to a more open backbore. For example, our students use a Hammond Design 5Mb on the Yamahas, and they get a better tone and response due to the slightly more open throat (26) and a 3 backbore, which is slightly more open than standard.

Hope this helps,

AL
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drdrmike
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2024 9:41 pm    Post subject: Yamaha YTR 6345HS -- how many produced? bell material? Reply with quote

Hello TH --

Longtime reader and 1st time poster. I have the YTR6345HS from the early 90's and find it to be a super free blowing horn that can hold its own at orchestral fortissimo without any break up.

I haven't seen many of these around. Is there a reference for the numbers of each model that Yamaha (or other manufacturers) produced?

I spent some time digging, but can't find what material was used for the bell on this model. The later 6345HII used Gold Brass, I think...

Thanks for any info...

Michael
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Louise Finch
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2024 11:43 pm    Post subject: Re: Yamaha Heavywall trumpets Reply with quote

mvbach37 wrote:
I've got a couple of Yamaha Heavywall or heavy wall trumpets. I don't know much about the Heavywalls. Anyone know about them, I just know from what I've read on the net that they were built as a heavier trumpet and somewhat like a Bach and the "heavier is better" thing. They look a lot like the 2006 Xeno YTR-8335 I have. The trumpets play all right but not impressive to me. The models are a YTR-6335H and YTR-6345H. Valves have a "dead" feel and I've never been impressed with Yamaha valves but their latest version of the synthetic oils in the 2 oz. bottle is very impressive. Anyone want to share heir thoughts? The horns I have were built in 1990 and 1993 from what Yamaha told me when I wrote to them with the serial numbers.


Hi

I'm in a hurry and haven't had chance to read the other replies, so I'm very sorry if I duplicate anything, but these trumpets look like your 2006 Xeno I, because the YTR-6335H was the predecessor of the YTR-6335HII (I used to have one of these and thought that it was a very good trumpet), which was the predecessor of the YTR-8335 Xeno, which was replaced by the latest model in 2013, the YTR-8335II, but the II is not marked anywhere. There are distinct features which indentify the difference between the Xeno I and Xeno II.

Take care and best wishes

Lou
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Louise Finch
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2024 11:54 pm    Post subject: Re: Yamaha YTR 6345HS -- how many produced? bell material? Reply with quote

drdrmike wrote:
Hello TH --

Longtime reader and 1st time poster. I have the YTR6345HS from the early 90's and find it to be a super free blowing horn that can hold its own at orchestral fortissimo without any break up.

I haven't seen many of these around. Is there a reference for the numbers of each model that Yamaha (or other manufacturers) produced?

I spent some time digging, but can't find what material was used for the bell on this model. The later 6345HII used Gold Brass, I think...

Thanks for any info...

Michael


Hi Michael

I did find a moment to read on, and now realise that I have replied to an opening post from 2021 lol, hence me replying to you (although what I typed in my last post probably partially answers some of your questions). Welcome to the forum. The later 6345HII had a choice of either yellow or gold brass for the bell, with the G added to the model number. I had a gold brass 6335HII, and mine was marked YTR-6335HGII. I imagine that the 6335H/6345H were also available in either a yellow or gold brass bell.

Take care and best wishes

Lou
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Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs
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Louise Finch
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2024 11:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi again Michael

When I have more time, I'll go back and post some more information regarding when the models were introduced.

Take care and best wishes

Lou
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Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs
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Crazy Finn
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2024 1:30 am    Post subject: Re: Yamaha YTR 6345HS -- how many produced? bell material? Reply with quote

drdrmike wrote:
Hello TH --

Longtime reader and 1st time poster. I have the YTR6345HS from the early 90's and find it to be a super free blowing horn that can hold its own at orchestral fortissimo without any break up.

I haven't seen many of these around. Is there a reference for the numbers of each model that Yamaha (or other manufacturers) produced?

I spent some time digging, but can't find what material was used for the bell on this model. The later 6345HII used Gold Brass, I think...

Thanks for any info...

Michael


Here you go

https://www.yamahacollector.com/

There's a lot of information contained in the model number itself. It's not random, the numbers mean things.

Heh, I was about to type it up, but handily found this instead.

https://www.trumpet-history.com/yamaha%20models.htm

Anyway:

First number - Grade
Second number - Key
Third number - bore size
Fourth number doesn't seem to mean anything specific, but it usually a "5" or a "0" [zero].

This might be followed by the "serial lettering". Example is your 6345HII - Heavy Wall, second generation.

The bore size letter designation isn't part of the model number, but does appear on the valve block separately.

The Bell designation isn't usually part of any model or marking. There is a 8335LA model they made in collaboration with Wayne Bergeron, but I don't know if the "LA" means anything with the bore and bell or if it's just a reference to him working in Los Angeles.

The "Shew" horns have a "Z" at the end of the model. Cause it's cool? Dunno.
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Louise Finch
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2024 1:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi again Michael

You may be interested in the following Yamaha brochure:

https://europe.yamaha.com/files/download/brochure/1/330421/yamaha_sales-mnl_xeno_eng_HR_20130909.pdf

This shows four generations of Xeno.

However please note the following (this is taken from the perspective of what is available in the UK):

The 1986 YTR-8335HS has YTR-6335HS in brackets, which is what the model was known as in the UK.

The 1990 Xeno 1st generation has a model number of YTR-8335US. This model was not available in the UK.

The 1994 Xeno 2nd generation YTR-8335US II has a model number of YTR-6335HS II in brackets, which is what the model was known as in the UK. In the UK, this model was marketed as the Mark II rather than as a Xeno. I had one, the YTR-6335HG II

The 2001 Xeno 3rd generation YTR-8335S is what we refer to as the Xeno I

The 2013 Xeno 4th generation YTR-8335S is what we refer to as the Xeno II.

To directly answer your questions:

I haven't seen many of these around. Is there a reference for the numbers of each model that Yamaha (or other manufacturers) produced?

You mean numbers of each model, as in the quantity made?

https://parts-search.yamaha.co.jp/html/WIND_ENGLISH/orders/search_result_e.php?m=&p=&k=&bc=002&mc=002_001&sc=002_001_001

Sadly however there is no serial number range for the YTR-6345H. I notice that the above link gives the date range as 1987-1993 for the YTR-6335H and 1989-1993 for the YTR-6345H, whereas the brochure I linked to originally gives the date for the YTR-6335H as 1986-1994.


I spent some time digging, but can't find what material was used for the bell on this model. The later 6345HII used Gold Brass, I think...

Gold brass would be indicated by a G in the model number. The above link lists the YTR-6335H (yellow brass bell in lacquer), YTR-6335HG (gold brass bell in lacquer), YTR-6335HS (yellow brass bell in silver-plate) and YTR-6335HGS (gold brass bell in silver-plate), all produced between 1987 and 1993, and the YTR-6345H (yellow brass bell in lacquer), YTR-6345HG (gold brass bell in lacquer), YTR-6345HS (yellow brass bell in silver-plate) and YTR-6345HGS (gold brass bell in silver-plate), all produced between 1989 and 1993.

For the subsequent model, the above link lists the YTR-6335HII (yellow brass bell in lacquer), YTR-6335HGII (gold brass bell in lacquer), YTR-6335HSII (yellow brass bell in silver-plate) and YTR-6335HGS (gold brass bell in silver-plate), all produced between 1994 and 1997, and the YTR-6345HII (yellow brass bell in lacquer), YTR-6345HGII (gold brass bell in lacquer), YTR-6345HSII (yellow brass bell in silver-plate) and YTR-6345HGSII (gold brass bell in silver-plate), all produced between 1994 and 1997.

So to directly answer your question, your YTR-6345HS has a yellow brass bell (if it is marked YTR-6345HS and not YTR-6345HGS) and is presumably in silver plate, hence the S on the end of the model number, and the YTR-6345HII would also have a yellow brass bell, unless it was marked as YTR-6345HGII.

In a nut-shell, yellow brass and lacquer are not marked, and a G is added to the model number to indicate a gold rather than yellow brass bell, and S is added to the model number for silver-plate. Your trumpet was available in four configurations, YTR-6345H, YTR-6345HG, YTR-6345HS and YTR-6345HGS. As you probably know, the 3rd digit being a 4 indicates large bore whereas the 3rd digit being a 3 indicates medium large bore.

All the best

Lou

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Trumpets:
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Bach Strad 180ML/37
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Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
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