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Hornwiz Regular Member
Joined: 30 Jan 2021 Posts: 19
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Posted: Mon Feb 15, 2021 8:56 pm Post subject: Playing by ear not knowing note names/combinations ? |
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Guys need from your expertise/knowledge...
What is the easiest way to play trumpet by ear... For example on piano even a new player can play a C and then hear a major 3rd E and almost with complete certainty play it just by looking and guessing the distance ... Since trumpet is not really visible , must you know the valve combinations or can you play an open C and then play the E just by "Distance or must you know all the note combinations/names??? |
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huntman10 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 30 Aug 2017 Posts: 691 Location: Texas South Plains
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Posted: Mon Feb 15, 2021 9:12 pm Post subject: |
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No way to say. I know lots of players who are masters at playing by ear, then there are people like me......
I know a guy personally who became a very good jazz player who didn't really learn to read music until he started his freshman year as a trumpet major in college. He learned fast then, and did very well. I've known hundreds of trumpet players, but he is the only one like that. But he started band in elementary school, and learned to play watching his friends and following along for about 6 years before college.
I've heard that Chet Baker tried studying with a trumpet teacher, who became totally frustrated because Chet's fingerings seemed to have little to do with the notes coming from his bell......
I would think that you need to start by getting a chart of the basic major scales and fingerings, and play scales. Then expand to minor scales, and all the modes. If you insist on doing it by yourself, it will be harder. Even if you have a great ear, developing the chops will be necessary for accuracy and control.
And don't expect miracles. You are talking about a steep climb for everyone but a rare few talented people. _________________ huntman10
Collector/Player of Fine (and not so fine) Brass Instruments including
Various Strads, Yammies, Al Hirt Courtois, Schilkes,
Selmer 25, Getzen Eternas, Kanstuls (920 Pic, CG)
Martin Custom Large Bore, Lots Olds!, Conns, etc. |
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Hornwiz Regular Member
Joined: 30 Jan 2021 Posts: 19
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Posted: Mon Feb 15, 2021 9:32 pm Post subject: |
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huntman10 wrote: | No way to say. I know lots of players who are masters at playing by ear, then there are people like me......
I know a guy personally who became a very good jazz player who didn't really learn to read music until he started his freshman year as a trumpet major in college. He learned fast then, and did very well. I've known hundreds of trumpet players, but he is the only one like that. But he started band in elementary school, and learned to play watching his friends and following along for about 6 years before college.
I've heard that Chet Baker tried studying with a trumpet teacher, who became totally frustrated because Chet's fingerings seemed to have little to do with the notes coming from his bell......
I would think that you need to start by getting a chart of the basic major scales and fingerings, and play scales. Then expand to minor scales, and all the modes. If you insist on doing it by yourself, it will be harder. Even if you have a great ear, developing the chops will be necessary for accuracy and control.
And don't expect miracles. You are talking about a steep climb for everyone but a rare few talented people. |
But isn't there a way to do it though... Like i was reading the 1st valve lowers a note by whole tone and 2nd by half and 3rd by minor 3rd...for example If you have never played the piano in 10 seconds you can get a good visual/feeling of how far the notes are apart and what key to hit... And you can can play right away... With the trumpet there has to be a "trick" with the valves somehow... Like which valve will allow the next major tone to be played then a half note up from that ...i know air pressure will change etc ... What you mentioned about Chet's playing ... Is that to say that you can make your own fingerings according to your comfort/playing? |
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deleted_user_687c31b New Member
Joined: 03 Apr 1996 Posts: 0
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Posted: Mon Feb 15, 2021 11:35 pm Post subject: |
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Hornwiz wrote: | But isn't there a way to do it though... Like i was reading the 1st valve lowers a note by whole tone and 2nd by half and 3rd by minor 3rd...for example If you have never played the piano in 10 seconds you can get a good visual/feeling of how far the notes are apart and what key to hit... And you can can play right away... With the trumpet there has to be a "trick" with the valves somehow... Like which valve will allow the next major tone to be played then a half note up from that |
The 'trick', insofar I understand what you're referring to, is exactly that: each valve lowers the tone by a fixed amount by lengthening the tube that the air goes through. There is no 'up' though, that's what the player does. You go 'up' by playing the next 'open' note and if you need something in between, you press a valve to lower it again. Each valve represents a specific interval and by combining them, you can combine the intervals to make even larger intervals. The 1st valve interval is a full tone, the 2nd a semitone and the 3rd a full tone + a semitone (i.e. the same as valve 1&2 combined).
For example, if you start at G going down to C, the valves are:
G - open
F# - 2
F - 1
E - 1,2 (or 3)
Eb - 2,3
D - 1,3
C# 1,2,3
C - open again, you're playing a different natural tone
If you want to up from that G, you do so by playing the C above it, and then press 23 to get back down to Ab. So going up from G, the valves would be:
G - open
Ab - 2,3
A - 1,2
Bb - 1
B - 2
C - open
and then for the C# you start at the E above and use valve 1/2, etc.
The is somewhat simplified as there are many other aspects of intonation (for example, the interval produced by the 3rd slide isn't exactly the same as that of valve 1&2 combined), but the above is basically how valves work. |
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JonathanM Heavyweight Member
Joined: 25 Aug 2007 Posts: 2018 Location: Charleston, SC
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Posted: Tue Feb 16, 2021 5:37 am Post subject: |
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I learned to play by ear by playing at church. I learned the scales to the most common keys the church musicians used, (C, Eb, F and Bb), the chromatic scale, then began playing along during the song/worship service (very softly). I’d practice songs at home (by ear of course) that I struggled with at church, and gradually I became somewhat proficient. I no doubt practiced by playing along with various recordings at home; it’s still great practice. In fact, I played along with the music at an airport yesterday (in a quiet corner with a practice mute, of course).
The main thing to me has always been ‘hearing’ or anticipating the intervals that are upcoming. It appears that some find it easy to play by ear, while others find it excessively challenging. Similarly, some excel at sight-reading while others struggle; we all have innate strengths and weaknesses. Some learn to play by ear quite easily while others never do. I’m not bad by ear, but I marvel at the ability of some players. So, like range and tone, there are many different levels of proficiency amongst those who play by ear. _________________ Jonathan Milam
Trumpets: 18043B, 18043*, 18043 Sterling Silver +, 18037 SterlingSilver+, Benge 4x, Olds: '34 Symphony, '47 Super, '52 Recording
Flugle: Strad 182
Puje: American Belle
Cornet: Olds Recording & Super |
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improver Heavyweight Member
Joined: 14 Mar 2004 Posts: 1455
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Posted: Tue Feb 16, 2021 5:48 am Post subject: |
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The easiest way to play by ear is pick up your trumpet and play songs or play along with jazz solos or tunes on YouTube. The idea is do it so much that whatever you hear you can play on the horn. Relate everything to major key centers. Even altered or blue notes always in your mind relate it. Eventually your ear will tell you the notes to play. Jazz isn't about reading music, unless your playing in a big band. I've never been a big transcriber, although I understand the reasons to do it, but If you can pick up things with your ear and retain them then you've got it. |
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Hornwiz Regular Member
Joined: 30 Jan 2021 Posts: 19
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Posted: Tue Feb 16, 2021 5:56 am Post subject: |
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hibidogrulez wrote: | Hornwiz wrote: | But isn't there a way to do it though... Like i was reading the 1st valve lowers a note by whole tone and 2nd by half and 3rd by minor 3rd...for example If you have never played the piano in 10 seconds you can get a good visual/feeling of how far the notes are apart and what key to hit... And you can can play right away... With the trumpet there has to be a "trick" with the valves somehow... Like which valve will allow the next major tone to be played then a half note up from that |
The 'trick', insofar I understand what you're referring to, is exactly that: each valve lowers the tone by a fixed amount by lengthening the tube that the air goes through. There is no 'up' though, that's what the player does. You go 'up' by playing the next 'open' note and if you need something in between, you press a valve to lower it again. Each valve represents a specific interval and by combining them, you can combine the intervals to make even larger intervals. The 1st valve interval is a full tone, the 2nd a semitone and the 3rd a full tone + a semitone (i.e. the same as valve 1&2 combined).
For example, if you start at G going down to C, the valves are:
G - open
F# - 2
F - 1
E - 1,2 (or 3)
Eb - 2,3
D - 1,3
C# 1,2,3
C - open again, you're playing a different natural tone
If you want to up from that G, you do so by playing the C above it, and then press 23 to get back down to Ab. So going up from G, the valves would be:
G - open
Ab - 2,3
A - 1,2
Bb - 1
B - 2
C - open
and then for the C# you start at the E above and use valve 1/2, etc.
The is somewhat simplified as there are many other aspects of intonation (for example, the interval produced by the 3rd slide isn't exactly the same as that of valve 1&2 combined), but the above is basically how valves work. |
(Hibidogrulez) This is exactly what I wanted to see! You are Brilliant!!!!!!! I will figure out the going up notes |
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deleted_user_687c31b New Member
Joined: 03 Apr 1996 Posts: 0
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Posted: Tue Feb 16, 2021 6:02 am Post subject: |
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You’re welcome. |
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JayKosta Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2018 Posts: 3304 Location: Endwell NY USA
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Posted: Tue Feb 16, 2021 7:08 am Post subject: Re: Playing by ear not knowing note names/combinations ? |
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Hornwiz wrote: | ... must you know the valve combinations or can you play an open C and then play the E just by "Distance or must you know all the note combinations/names??? |
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A 'trumpet fingering chart' would be a big help to you. This is an example -
https://www.yamaha.com/en/musical_instrument_guide/trumpet/play/play002.html
A trumpet should not attempt to be viewed as a piano, harp, xylophone, etc that has specific keys or locations that 'produce' the desired note.
For trumpet, the player must produce the desired note/pitch INTO the mouthpiece AND use the valve combination that ALLOWS the trumpet to resonate that pitch. The 'fingering chart' shows the valve combination used to resonate, BUT the player MUST generate the pitch. _________________ Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'. |
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Skanker Regular Member
Joined: 10 Feb 2021 Posts: 24 Location: Isle of Man
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cheiden Heavyweight Member
Joined: 28 Sep 2004 Posts: 8914 Location: Orange County, CA
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Posted: Tue Feb 16, 2021 9:20 am Post subject: |
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It takes a lot of time on a horn playing scales, intervals and the harmonic series before you can expect to be able to play by ear. _________________ "I'm an engineer, which means I think I know a whole bunch of stuff I really don't."
Charles J Heiden/So Cal
Bach Strad 180ML43*/43 Bb/Yamaha 731 Flugel/Benge 1X C/Kanstul 920 Picc/Conn 80A Cornet
Bach 3C rim on 1.5C underpart |
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HERMOKIWI Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2008 Posts: 2581
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Posted: Tue Feb 16, 2021 10:44 am Post subject: Re: Playing by ear not knowing note names/combinations ? |
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Hornwiz wrote: | Guys need from your expertise/knowledge...
What is the easiest way to play trumpet by ear... For example on piano even a new player can play a C and then hear a major 3rd E and almost with complete certainty play it just by looking and guessing the distance ... Since trumpet is not really visible , must you know the valve combinations or can you play an open C and then play the E just by "Distance or must you know all the note combinations/names??? |
You already learned to speak language by ear, so you have experience with the process of how learning to make sounds by ear is done. Specifically, you learn to match the sounds you want to make with the muscular movements necessary to make those sounds. It's a slow process of trial and error.
Learning to play trumpet by ear is done by the same process. Each pitch is a sound. It takes certain muscular movements to produce that sound on the horn. You don't need to know the name of the pitch in order to produce the sound corresponding to that pitch. It's a slow process of trial and error.
Learning scales and intervals helps speed up the process because it helps you to practice and develop a sequential muscle memory of ascending and descending pitches. Ultimately, however, being fluent in playing by ear is just a different version of being fluent in speaking. It has to be automatic and happen without thinking about it in order to be fluent. _________________ HERMOKIWI |
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JayKosta Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2018 Posts: 3304 Location: Endwell NY USA
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Posted: Tue Feb 16, 2021 11:50 am Post subject: |
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'Playing by ear' might be learnable with enough study and practice, but I think that 'natural ability' is also a large factor. Specifically the ability to envision the desired interval pitch, and to know what note corresponds to that pitch.
I think that many people can whistle or sing a simple melody and get the 'right notes' - but then attempting to play them on a piano takes a lot of 'hunt and peck'.
I have always done poorly when trying to 'play by ear', but I can usually do a decent job 'sight humming' a line of written music to get an idea of what it should sound like. _________________ Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'. |
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JoseLindE4 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 18 Apr 2003 Posts: 791
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Posted: Tue Feb 16, 2021 1:10 pm Post subject: |
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On some level, most good playing is done by ear, even it begins with reading notes. Although it’s often related to improvising, playing by ear is a skill that all players should develop. Anyone who can’t play by ear well would grow significantly as an overall player and musician by working on it. The stronger the connection between the mind’s ear and the instrument, the better off we are no matter what kind of music.
As far as understanding how the system works las compared to a piano, the question is a matter of understanding the harmonic series. The trumpet is more or less seven different bugles by the magic of valves. |
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JayKosta Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2018 Posts: 3304 Location: Endwell NY USA
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Posted: Tue Feb 16, 2021 1:57 pm Post subject: |
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--------------------
The chart itself is fine, but some of the words used in the video to explain it are questionable ...
e.g. the C on the 3rd space of the staff is NOT called 'high C'. High C is 1 octave above 3rd space C. _________________ Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'. |
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Skanker Regular Member
Joined: 10 Feb 2021 Posts: 24 Location: Isle of Man
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Posted: Tue Feb 16, 2021 2:15 pm Post subject: |
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JayKosta wrote: |
The chart itself is fine, but some of the words used in the video to explain it are questionable ...
e.g. the C on the 3rd space of the staff is NOT called 'high C'. High C is 1 octave above 3rd space C. |
Thanks Jay - I hadn't spotted that. It's one (of the many, I'm sure) things that I'm not clear on |
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PMonteiro Veteran Member
Joined: 29 Jul 2020 Posts: 130 Location: Hudson Valley
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Posted: Thu Feb 18, 2021 9:03 am Post subject: |
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FWIW, I played almost entirely by ear for my first few years on trumpet. I didn't know what valve combinations corresponded to what notes. I figured out the valve positions and how to play scales by trial and error, and it helped build serious muscle memory for when I later learned which notes matched the fingerings.
So my unscientific advice to learn playing by ear is to forget about the names of the notes. Hear what you want to play in your head, and as long as you understand how the valves operate the sound will come out. _________________ YTR-6335HSII
YTR-2320
Accord in C |
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kehaulani Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Mar 2003 Posts: 9025 Location: Hawai`i - Texas
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Posted: Thu Feb 18, 2021 10:06 am Post subject: |
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The valve combinations is just, to me, over-thinking. Do you know all your scales including the intervallic relation between notes within that scale?
Then know all the chords that those scales produce. Chords are a consequence of scales.
Then know your common progressions.
At the same time, learn how to embellish chord notes and scales.
Apply to very well-known and easy tunes and gradually get more complex.
Easy, see. It'll only take a couple of years. _________________ "If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." Bird
Yamaha 8310Z Bobby Shew trumpet
Benge 3X Trumpet
Benge 3X Cornet
Adams F-1 Flghn |
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trickg Heavyweight Member
Joined: 02 Jan 2002 Posts: 5677 Location: Glen Burnie, Maryland
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Posted: Thu Feb 18, 2021 11:08 am Post subject: Re: Playing by ear not knowing note names/combinations ? |
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Hornwiz wrote: | Guys need from your expertise/knowledge...
What is the easiest way to play trumpet by ear... For example on piano even a new player can play a C and then hear a major 3rd E and almost with complete certainty play it just by looking and guessing the distance ... Since trumpet is not really visible , must you know the valve combinations or can you play an open C and then play the E just by "Distance or must you know all the note combinations/names??? |
IMO, the more you know the better off you'll be.
I don't know why anyone would even begin to attempt to learn how to play trumpet without first learning notes and fingerings. I can't really recall when it became second nature to me to the point where I'd see a note on the page and just know what it was - probably sometime in my 2nd to 3rd year of playing, but possibly in my 1st.
Aside from that though, in order to really "know" those intervals, a person would, again IMO, be much better off learning scales, chords/arpeggios, intervals, working on ear training, etc.
There's no magic pill or easy way - for most mortal people it's just a lot of hard work and study, and there's no getting around it. _________________ Patrick Gleason
- Jupiter 1600i, ACB 3C, Warburton 4SVW/Titmus RT2
- Brasspire Unicorn C
- ACB Doubler
"95% of the average 'weekend warrior's' problems will be solved by an additional 30 minutes of insightful practice." - PLP |
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Rapier232 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 16 Aug 2011 Posts: 1323 Location: Twixt the Moor and the Sea, UK
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Posted: Thu Feb 18, 2021 11:40 pm Post subject: |
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I once played in a community orchestra, a lady joined the trumpet section who was a talented musician. She could play, violin, piano, accordion and trumpet. However although she could look at the music and play the notes written, she had no idea what they were called or how long they were. She ignored rests completely and had no idea of volume markings, or key signatures. I had to tell her never to play louder than me. Once she’d heard a piece she was quite good at it. She had learned to play all her instruments just by ear. She’s still playing some 5 years later and now reads quite well and can do something that I can’t. She can play any tune she knows, without music. I can only play written music. If I can’t see it written down I’m stuffed. I know a guy who was a professional musician in the Royal Marines Band for 25 years and he’s like me, can’t play without sheet music. _________________ "Nearly as good as I need to be. Not nearly as good as I want to be".
Smith-Watkins Bb
Will Spencer Bb
Eclipse Flugel
Smith Watkins K2 Cornet
JP152 C Trumpet
Besson Bugle |
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