Joined: 20 Dec 2020 Posts: 18 Location: Stonehaven, northeast Scotland
Posted: Sat Feb 20, 2021 9:18 am Post subject: The ‘right’ mouthpiece, plus double-buzz
Greetings!
This is my first post here on Trumpet Herald!
I’m just over a month off 50 years old. For the best part of 30 years I struggled on baritone horn, the British brass band instrument .... Over a couple of years though ago I made the decision to change instrument. I had really struggled with my embouchure on baritone, very off-centre. This resulted in technical struggles on the low brass instrument. I was frequently advised embouchure change, and I tried several times but couldn’t do it. So that made me decide to change instrument.
My rationale was that a smaller mouthpiece should help me centre my embouchure better .... After almost 2 1/2 years I’m still adjusting to trumpet. I’ve been ‘experimenting’ with mouthpieces, mostly symphonic, larger mouthpieces. My range is comfortable up to G above the stave, but I’m having a block to consistently hit higher notes, and my lower pitches, mostly D and C below the stave I’m often plagued with a double buzz.
I’d greatly appreciate any advice please to help with improved sound, range, and to rid me of the double buzz.
Great regards from Scotland,
Donald 🎺 _________________ Bach Strad 180, over 30 mouthpieces, and counting .....
I doubt it's a mouthpiece issue, especially after you've experimented with many. And I'd guess (hard to say with out seeing your setup) that the range and double buzz are linked.
I recently shared this somewhere else on this forum, but I'd bet that about 10 minutes a day with this drill will definitely clear up the double buzz (only one lip vibrates in this drill) and that will probably influence your upper register as well.
I recently used this to unlock my upper register with this after being stuck in the same place for 20 years...
I suggest you compare what you are currently doing with the items that I mention. Doing the comparison should help you with the words to describe your technique, and perhaps to ask more detailed questions here on TH. _________________ Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'.
As for his ACE, or Aperture controlled embouchure. That is a sure way to have weak and puny high pitches, which he has.
Players with full sounds use rim-to-rim lip vibration, and simply and effectively control the tension/firmness of BOTH lips to control pitch.
Oh, and air speed does not determine pitch. It is a variable that you will NEVER know, nor should you EVER be concerned with. (Its just something trumpet players say.)
Quote:
My range is comfortable up to G above the stave, but I’m having a block to consistently hit higher notes, and my lower pitches, mostly D and C below the stave I’m often plagued with a double buzz.
Most struggling players use excessive effort to play. Especially in the low register and softly. If this is the case the strength is exhausted quickly and range suffers.
As for his ACE, or Aperture controlled embouchure. That is a sure way to have weak and puny high pitches, which he has.
Players with full sounds use rim-to-rim lip vibration, and simply and effectively control the tension/firmness of BOTH lips to control pitch.
Oh, and air speed does not determine pitch. It is a variable that you will NEVER know, nor should you EVER be concerned with. (Its just something trumpet players say.)
Quote:
My range is comfortable up to G above the stave, but I’m having a block to consistently hit higher notes, and my lower pitches, mostly D and C below the stave I’m often plagued with a double buzz.
Most struggling players use excessive effort to play. Especially in the low register and softly. If this is the case the strength is exhausted quickly and range suffers.
Send me a video of your playing.
This just proves that you haven't actually listened to what JH has to say. Once you figure out your personal pivot from bottom to top you can then find the mouthpiece that fits the natural width of your embouchure ()obviously he is selling his modular system, but whatever...).
And it's not free buzzing because you are actively pinning one lip with the mouthpiece rim and preventing it from vibrating.
I have plenty of volume behind my high range still -- it hasn't gotten puny of weak since working on ACE, and more importantly the mid range pivot he discusses. Just more reliable, more efficient, and better endurance.
Why are good trumpet players so often so myopic? _________________ Bb: FrankenBach, '72 Committee, Conn 22B, King 2070SGX
C: Bach 229-MK slide/pipe, Bach 226 with YTR-9445(2) pipe
D/Eb: Bach 239 with YTR-9636 pipe
Picc: Stomvi Master, Couesnon Monopole
Cornet: Schilke A2C, '23 Buescher
Flugel: Scodwell Prototype
Joined: 22 May 2007 Posts: 2654 Location: Anacortes, WA
Posted: Sat Feb 20, 2021 4:23 pm Post subject:
Odd transition from large mouthpiece instrument to small. I've found the larger mouthpiece of euphonium to be much more friendly than the one on trumpet. Apparently I'm not alone. I've read it is common. _________________ Richard
Joined: 12 Feb 2004 Posts: 6130 Location: Des Moines
Posted: Sun Feb 21, 2021 6:32 am Post subject:
Use a middle of the road mouthpiece such as a Bach 3C or 7C.
Then join us here.
I'll be conducting a ZOOM session this Friday 2/26 7:00am CST.
This would be a great introduction to the William Adam routine as taught to me in 1982 by Mr. Adam.
bill bergren is inviting you to a scheduled Zoom meeting.
Topic: bill bergren's Personal Meeting Room
Join Zoom Meeting
https://us02web.zoom.us/j/9854582581
Meeting ID: 985 458 2581 _________________ Bill Bergren
Joined: 20 Dec 2020 Posts: 18 Location: Stonehaven, northeast Scotland
Posted: Sun Feb 21, 2021 10:37 am Post subject:
Hi guys, many thanks for your replies and thoughts, much appreciated.
Yes, I’ve had a few good-natured remarks about changing from a baritone to a trumpet ... I totally appreciate that it’s normally the other way around .... But as far as I’m aware there’s no law of nature that dictates against going from a large mouthpiece to a small one. It’s a slow process to fully adjust definitely, but I don’t feel that my difficulties are insurmountable, only time will tell I suppose.
Compared to baritone I’m sure my trumpet embouchure is better ‘balanced’, certainly more centred. The help that I feel I need is really just some fine-tuning, whether it’s with mouthpiece selection or embouchure set-up and riddling me of the dreaded double-buzz ....
Based on local advice I’ve been concentrating more on symphonic-type mouthpieces, 17+mm cup diameters, with a few slightly smaller ones thrown in to help with playing in higher register .... Not that I have much need yet to play above the stave with my current practice, and I can play up to high C anyway even on my Bach 1 1/2C, my Denis Wick MM2C, and Phil Parker Symphony mouthpieces, amongst others .... It’s more in the lower register, D and C below the stave where the double buzz, intermittently bothers me .... That’s when I question my choice of mouthpiece. I have smaller cup diameters, that do improve the double buzz problem, but are not so comfy to blow, hence why I’m here conversing with you good people!
I’ve just ordered a Denis Wick 4B off eBay, cup diameter 16.5mm .... A good choice, or just another piece of metal in my collection? Time will tell ....
Incidentally, back in my late 20s (I’ll be 50 next month), I did play trumpet for a couple of years. I blew a cheep 2nd hand Chinese trumpet I found in a shop in York, England, where I studied at the time. I got lessons from a Scottish trumpet student at the University in York, where I was a post-grad student, he had me play a Bach 1 1/4C .... So I guess that is why I’m so concentrated still on larger mouthpieces ....? I played trumpet in the university student orchestra, but went back to baritone when I left uni and joined a local brass band.
Thanks again,
Donald. _________________ Bach Strad 180, over 30 mouthpieces, and counting .....
Joined: 20 Dec 2020 Posts: 18 Location: Stonehaven, northeast Scotland
Posted: Sun Feb 21, 2021 11:35 am Post subject:
Hi guys, many thanks for your replies and thoughts, much appreciated.
Yes, I’ve had a few good-natured remarks about changing from a baritone to a trumpet ... I totally appreciate that it’s normally the other way around .... But as far as I’m aware there’s no law of nature that dictates against going from a large mouthpiece to a small one. It’s a slow process to fully adjust definitely, but I don’t feel that my difficulties are insurmountable, only time will tell I suppose.
Compared to baritone I’m sure my trumpet embouchure is better ‘balanced’, certainly more centred. The help that I feel I need is really just some fine-tuning, whether it’s with mouthpiece selection or embouchure set-up and riddling me of the dreaded double-buzz ....
Based on local advice I’ve been concentrating more on symphonic-type mouthpieces, 17+mm cup diameters, with a few slightly smaller ones thrown in to help with playing in higher register .... Not that I have much need yet to play above the stave with my current practice, and I can play up to high C anyway even on my Bach 1 1/2C, my Denis Wick MM2C, and Phil Parker Symphony mouthpieces, amongst others .... It’s more in the lower register, D and C below the stave where the double buzz, intermittently bothers me .... That’s when I question my choice of mouthpiece. I have smaller cup diameters, that do improve the double buzz problem, but are not so comfy to blow, hence why I’m here conversing with you good people!
I’ve just ordered a Denis Wick 4B off eBay, cup diameter 16.5mm .... A good choice, or just another piece of metal in my collection? Time will tell ....
Incidentally, back in my late 20s (I’ll be 50 next month), I did play trumpet for a couple of years. I blew a cheep 2nd hand Chinese trumpet I found in a shop in York, England, where I studied at the time. I got lessons from a Scottish trumpet student at the University in York, where I was a post-grad student, he had me play a Bach 1 1/4C .... So I guess that is why I’m so concentrated still on larger mouthpieces ....? I played trumpet in the university student orchestra, but went back to baritone when I left uni and joined a local brass band.
Thanks again,
Donald. _________________ Bach Strad 180, over 30 mouthpieces, and counting .....
Joined: 30 Jun 2005 Posts: 2662 Location: sunny Sydney, Australia
Posted: Sun Feb 21, 2021 3:49 pm Post subject:
What you’ll get here are WAGs (wild a$$ed guesses) as to what is going on.
For me, if you have a high C on trumpet and double buzz in the lower register, you are way too tight. Relaxing, doing some pedal exercises, and slurs down into the lower register to create a balance there may help.
A good teacher may help even more!
Cheers
Andy _________________ so many horns, so few good notes...
At the risk of ridicule and this is just my opinion
A double buzz is an imbalance between the upper and lower lips so that each lip vibrates at a different frequency.
This is common and can strike when fatigued or when the embouchure is not mature or both.
Altering the angle of the horn can end the double buzz but the real cure is working on the embouchure the chops and endurance
Reeded instruments tend not to experience double buzz that is because the reed is cut and shaped in for example bassoon or oboe to be balanced.
I would not dream of contradicting the excellent advice of Andy. I will add this however
Tightening the lips when the chops are not fully developed can result in the stronger lip being tighter, and the two lips can then vibrate at different rates.
Softening the lips allows them to regain balance and the double buzz goes away.
The lips are called the double reed for a reason and they must function as well balanced reeds to not double buzz. _________________ Conn 80a Cornet
Boosey & Hawkes Emperor Trumpet
Olds Fullerton Special Trumpet
Selmer Invicta Trumpet
Yamaha YCR 2330II Cornet
Selmer Student Trumpet
Bohland and Fuchs peashooter Trumpet
Boosey and Hawkes Regent Cornet
Lark M4045 Cornet
Joined: 25 Aug 2002 Posts: 727 Location: Asheville, NC
Posted: Tue Feb 23, 2021 6:02 am Post subject:
I'd have to watch you play to give you specific advice, but I'm concerned about your interest to center the mouthpiece placement. Off center placement is fine if that's where it works best. The placement also shouldn't be exactly 50/50 either. One lip or another should predominate. When the lips are too close to 50/50 they can fight for predominance inside the mouthpiece and cause a double buzz.
That's not the only cause of a double buzz, but it comes to mind since you mentioned centering the mouthpiece.
If you're able to post video of your chops to look at, it might help troubleshoot exactly what's going on. But a good place to start, I think, would be to go ahead an move your mouthpiece placement back to where it was before.
Joined: 20 Dec 2020 Posts: 18 Location: Stonehaven, northeast Scotland
Posted: Sun Mar 14, 2021 6:22 am Post subject: Bach 3
Hi guys,
Just a brief update .... Since I last posted I’ve been ‘experimenting’ on ‘smaller’ mouthpieces: a Bach 3, and a Denis Wick 4B.
The DW reached me first and I quite liked it, with its 16.5mm inner diameter it did feel a bit restrictive on my embouchure but I got used to it quickly and definitely greatly improved the double-buzz issue.
Then the Bach 3 arrived. According to the Bach manual it has a 16.3mm inner diameter but my immediate feeling when I blew it was that it was bigger, it felt just like blowing a 17mm size, to me. However, I’m feeling very comfortable on it, throughout my range, and similar to the DW 4B I found the double-buzz to be well controlled too, but maybe not quite as well as with the DW.
Regarding the relative ‘feel’ of both mouthpieces, I’m assuming the perceived differences in size between the Bach and the DW could be due to rim design? Any thoughts on that?
For the foreseeable future though I think I’ll be fine on the Bach 3. I’m interested in what other players think of the Bach 3?
Kind regards,
Donald _________________ Bach Strad 180, over 30 mouthpieces, and counting .....
You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum
