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A most instructive embouchure & high range video.


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delano
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2021 8:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lionel wrote:


Me? I'm about fifteen months into starting the Stevens System*. This is long enough to really observe some fantastic development. However it's not quite long enough to display professional results.(...) However, I also believe that the principles found in Stevens-Costello will produce the quickest improvement for anyone who gives it a sincere try.


The quote here above is from 15 February 2021, just a week ago.

And this is the same Lionel from 24 August 2016 (in his 6th post here on TH):

It works for me!
Okay friends I'm finally about 80 to 90% happy with my extreme upper register. And the best part is I'm convinced that the othet 10 to 20% will follow soon. I'm able to pretty much "live" at High G, and using the A and B natural above occasionally on stage. And as stated my next strategy is to conquer that 10% area and blow good double C's and D's without killing myself.
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steve0930
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2021 9:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Delano
I was intrigued by your post above re Lionel and his high note development. Are you saluting his achievements or alerting us to a perceived inconsistency?

On Jan21 2021 on another thread (I can't seem to expand my range) Lionel wrote
Quote:
Please believe me. After almost sixty years of playing the trumpet I am finally developing an unlimited range. This is very exciting. I hope that during the current New Year to start posting some video clips. Being just thirteen months into the new embouchure, Im still a little green on the system. This makes me a little shy about releasing my music presently. Regardless however I can knock the heck out of an F over Double C. So the rest is just Time/Experience. Thank you.


So as I read it Lionel has achieved the goals he set for himself in 2016 and some!
Congratulations Lionel - we need inspirational people like you posting as much as possible. Of course Delano, if you were indeed saluting Lionel you got there before me - so congratulations to you too.

Stay safe in these tough times - steve in Helsinki.
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delano
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2021 10:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry, Steve, I can't explain, forum rules.
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Eliot
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 23, 2021 5:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

After reading most of this thread (I've since read through all the posts) I've gone and purchased the pdf file of Stevens' & Costello's publication and found it informative and instructive as well as, at times, perplexing (trying to understand the parallel nature of top& bottom teeth - presumably in the vertical plane?).

My thanks to those who contributed to this thread and pointing me in the direction of Stevens & Costello.

I have raised a question in a new thread, "Stevens & Costello V Earl D Irons" and would appreciate comments from those who have used both Irons and Stevens & Costello.
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Lionel
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 25, 2021 6:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Delano,
Your post is apparently referencing an earlier failed attempt that I had been working on with the Stevens System. I've always been very honest in reporting my struggles. In fact the described words (assuming that they are mine as I don't see the link that they came from) represent not even my first attempt to conquer the Stevens system.

My recollection of 2016 is not vivid but I was still playing ''Downstream'' back then and doing a lot of lead playing. I might have been experimenting with the Stevens approach on the side. It wasn't until August 2018 when I had a serious accident and lost teeth. THEN I started seriously examining my situation. All I did for a year from Sept '18 to Oct '19 was experiment with an alteration to Stevens-Costello. But I reached a stymie and then quit that technique. Then in Nov of 19 I began my current phase. All previous attempts had been less than successful. In fact I think the one you posted (again assuming that it is even from my quotes as I just don't recall that post) was during the time when I was practicing a strict form of S/Costello And while optimistic at that time? It too came up short.

That said? I am absolutely convinced that my current stretch is hitting paydirt. Am already using it in a local band. I had to make an unusual mouthpiece in order to pull it off. However, this experience has taught me that perhaps the range of mouthpiece sizes that trumpet players use needs to be greatly extended.

I sense criticism from your post. Thus I wish that you had written me a P/M first in order to clarify. Or to at least tried to hear my side of the story. But I'm getting used to it. As those people who promote the Stevens-Costello approach better have a thick skin is they talk about the approach. As they have long been panned by critics. Figuratively ''drawn & quartered''. People resented the Hell out of Roy Stevens. Some absolutely hated him, and he was a kind fellow. He probably got criticized because he was costing them paying students.

But take note: When the Stevens System works? There is nothing like it. Roy Roman, who is now retired taught the system after Roy Stevens died. Roman had magnificent chops. Please see his cadenza starting roughly at 1:44 here: https://www.youtube.com! Satch?v=aHHwIoOFhmo

As for me? Initially, I didn't want to discuss my project until I was about two years into the ordeal. THEN I intend to post videos and sound clips etc. However, after reviewing my thoughts? It occurred to me that by writing about the process as I went through it I could effectively chronicle my ups & downs. That and perhaps this record of my effort might help someone else get through the psychological struggles associated with a major embouchure change. The Stevens System is fantastic but it isnt easy. Nor an overnight success.

There is absolutely nothing as good for a trumpet player as getting the Stevens System to work. Granted that it takes more effort for some than others. Ive been playing the trumpet for 56 years now and never found a system so effective. So let's not hack away at people who're going All In on this system. Instead? Let's support them.
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Voltrane
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 25, 2021 11:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lionel wrote
« Then in Nov of 19 I began my current phase. All previous attempts had been less than successful. In fact I think the one you posted (again assuming that it is even from my quotes as I just don't recall that post) was during the time when I was practicing a strict form of S/Costello And while optimistic at that time? It too came up short.
That said? I am absolutely convinced that my current stretch is hitting paydirt. »
Could you elaborate what kind of non strict S/Costello method you are using now?
Many thanks
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delano
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 26, 2021 1:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's not difficult, you go to your profile and click on 'Find all posts by Lionel'.
Then you click on the last page (=36) and look 6 posts up and there it is:

PostPosted: Wed Aug 24, 2016 6:59 pm Post subject: It works for me! Reply with quote
Kinda glad that last post of mine got accidentally lost in cyberspace. I'd gone on way too long and should have kept it brief. Also, sure hope that it didn't accidentally get posted as I'll have to delete in favor of this hopefully succinct one.

Okay friends I'm finally about 80 to 90% happy with my extreme upper register. And the best part is I'm convinced that the othet 10 to 20% will follow soon. I'm able to pretty much "live" at High G, and using the A and B natural above occasionally on stage. And as stated my next strategy is to conquer that 10% area and blow good double C's and D's without killing
myself.

I have no idea why I should have done this by pm as long as you feel free to insult everybody here that do not share the same obsession. To fresh up your memory (I emphasized some crucial words):

quote Lionel:
The rest however will fail. We either put the Double C on his horn at the beginning or we'll usually doom him to a career of mediocrity and embouchure problems for the rest of his life.

I hope that people here realize that this also is a judgement about a player like Sergei Nakariakov.
And this is no incident. It seems that your obsession with the extreme high register has given you the drive and freedom to qualify everybody with another opinion as failed players who try to hide their shortcomings by cheap excuses like tone, sound, musicality and other not relevant details for the really competent screamer.
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HERMOKIWI
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 26, 2021 4:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

delano wrote:
It seems that your obsession with the extreme high register has given you the drive and freedom to qualify everybody with another opinion as failed players who try to hide their shortcomings by cheap excuses like tone, sound, musicality and other not relevant details for the really competent screamer.


Unfortunately, I think this is a reasonable summation of the impression being communicated by players obsessed with the extreme high register. You never hear them talk about tone, sound, musicality and the other factors involved with true proficiency. Instead, it is a continuous flow of self-aggrandizement based on the myth that playing notes from double C up to the triples (notes that are irrelevant to 99.999999999999999% of trumpet playing) trumps everything and that if you can't play those notes there's something terribly wrong and deficient with you. Tell that to the likes of Sergei Nakariakov, Rafael Mendez, Clark Terry, Miles Davis, Chet Baker and even Maynard Ferguson and Wayne Bergeron and you'll get a room full of laughter.
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theslawdawg
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 26, 2021 4:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Honestly, if you aren't playing a DHC leaning back in a white jumpsuit, and ray-ban shades....it doesn't count, anyway.
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omelet
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 26, 2021 6:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am told that in private, Sergei's one true regret is that he never learned to scream like Maynard. Prove me wrong.

But seriously, why the hurt feelings? This is just a value judgment. It's about what you like and what your goals are in playing the instrument. He did post this in the "high range" forum.
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dabuzzer2
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 26, 2021 7:56 pm    Post subject: Stevens Method Reply with quote

Hey Guys:
In order to be a good teacher, as well as a performer, I frequently look at other methods from the ones I was taught. It helps me be open minded and gives me other options to try with students that essentially play differently than I do ("there are many ways up the mountain"). I also find that my playing has evolved from when I started and some of my original concepts were replaced.

So, to that end, does anybody know what happened to the tribute page that David Hay had created. I had just started reading it and watching some videos when it went away - or maybe it's down for a while....?
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delano
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 27, 2021 5:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Why posting that here?
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dabuzzer2
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 27, 2021 7:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

delano wrote:
Why posting that here?


- Because I found the links on this thread.
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razeontherock
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 27, 2021 10:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

delano wrote:
Sorry, Steve, I can't explain, forum rules.


You may feel he had an "unlimited" range in 2016? I could perform A above high c in 1977. I assure you that jump up to even a usable double D is HUGE.

There's really no inconsistency in what Lionel is saying, although he has been at this a long time, with considerable success. Had he known how to apply SC as a beginner first getting a high C would he have developed better or worse? That's what we can't accurately know. A competent teacher can guide a student through such things though.
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Lionel
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 28, 2021 1:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

razeontherock wrote:
delano wrote:
Sorry, Steve, I can't explain, forum rules.


You may feel he had an "unlimited" range in 2016? I could perform A above high c in 1977. I assure you that jump up to even a usable double D is HUGE.

There's really no inconsistency in what Lionel is saying, although he has been at this a long time, with considerable success. Had he known how to apply SC as a beginner first getting a high C would he have developed better or worse? That's what we can't accurately know. A competent teacher can guide a student through such things though.



Thank you Ray for your thoughtful response. This being the internet, a poor guy can easily fall victim to unwarranted criticism. In addition to potentially making a writer uncomfortable, these kinds of posts become a distraction to the overall subject.

But it isn't that I mind criticism, however, I'm not presently selling anyone anything. Nor have I been stating or implying that I personally have all the answers. As such, the recent apparent effort to discredit me was uncalled for. And I thank Ray for him apparently being cognizant of this matter.

However, I do strongly feel that the Stevens System does have ideas that are very helpful. That and includes concepts of physical science that when once applied simply must help a trumpet player develop the complete range of the horn. And yet long ago I discovered that the Stevens-Costello System has certain limitations. That some people fail at it and I wanted to know why because it worked so beautifully for so many. Some people could pull the system off exactly as directed in the book. Just as my student Rex is doing. Others, which include even me, have had to experiment with some radical concepts over the years. I consider my own problems developing the Stevens Embouchure to be a blessing in disguise. Just as was my serious embouchure injury back in 2018. As these two conditions absolutely required me to experiment and work on ideas & concepts not found within the Stevens System.

I have only recently learned that Roy Stevens was a self-taught trumpet player. That the way that he blew the horn and set up his chops was automatically following the directions involved in the Stevens-Costello embouchure. This situation created two kinds of responses.

A. He being an unbelievably good scream trumpet player? He got lots of students. This is only a natural response. Young students naturally seek out those who are successful on their instrument.
B. Roy being so successful on the trumpet? This may have blinded him to the numerous quirks and idiosyncrasies of certain individuals who do not immediately adapt well to his embouchure system.

All that I've done to add to that is discuss some of the quirks and unusual adjustments (to the Stevens System) that I've found necessary to finally put me on the right track.
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delano
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 28, 2021 1:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

razeontherock wrote:
delano wrote:
Sorry, Steve, I can't explain, forum rules.


You may feel he ...
No.

I did not make the forum rules nor that I have anything to do with the way they are maintained so I have to accept them as a fact. They make that IMO so now and then I feel myself forced to formulate things in a very covered way, on the edge of hypocrisy.
In cases like that I choose not to react at all.

BTW The fact, that L. accused me implicit of making up his quote of 2016 (by not giving the link) and that he obviously did not recognize his own words, is seen by me as a proof his writings are just that, writings.
And his texts are so crazy long that I think he has to read something about another failed (no DHC) trumpetplayer, Miles Davis, whose playing philosophy existed for a great part out of to skip as much as possible.
Could be an example to follow.
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Lionel
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 28, 2021 9:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

delano wrote:
razeontherock wrote:
delano wrote:
Sorry, Steve, I can't explain, forum rules.


You may feel he ...
No.

I did not make the forum rules nor that I have anything to do with the way they are maintained so I have to accept them as a fact. They make that IMO so now and then I feel myself forced to formulate things in a very covered way, on the edge of hypocrisy.
In cases like that I choose not to react at all.

BTW The fact, that L. accused me implicit of making up his quote of 2016 (by not giving the link) and that he obviously did not recognize his own words, is seen by me as a proof his writings are just that, writings.
And his texts are so crazy long that I think he has to read something about another failed (no DHC) trumpetplayer, Miles Davis, whose playing philosophy existed for a great part out of to skip as much as possible.
Could be an example to follow.


See that's not true. I said words to the effect that I did not know for certain exactly what my words were. Or if they were mine. I wasn't doubting you, but at the same time I had no idea of what the CONTEXT of my words was? They were, after all over four years old and by your own admission, no link was provided.

I have formulated various ideas over my 56 years behind the trumpet and am about to turn sixty-six years of age. During my years playing I've made numerous attempts to change/correct my embouchure so as to play more efficiently and ESPECIALLY to finally break through the G above High C barrier. This past endeavor started about fifteen and a half months ago. Roughly sometime in Nov. 2019. So from that point forward, at least from an embouchure standpoint, I've been nearly an absolute beginner. The embouchure change was not a mild adjustment but involved a radical change from my former way that I had often used professionally. That and once used to support me full-time for years.

As for ''long posts''? Sure. It takes some time to describe the intricacies of embouchure use/development. This is the reason why The Stevens-Costello method, in it's first edition ran about 188 pages of which only perhaps one-third involved written exercises. The rest were written pages of THEORY man! Physical principles. Very few trumpet players ''ever crack the code'' and find the physical advantage that the Stevens System describes. Most who do find it were fortunate and found it naturally and by pure luck. And even as helpful as it was, the Stevens System didn't always work for everyone are written. In my life, I've discovered a few concepts that make it more adaptable to me and I hope also for others.

Roy Stevens himself was surrounded by what we would now call ''trolls''. They didn't have the internet, but Roy was still hated because his material was incredibly effective. He was turning out monster trumpets like Roy Roman every week. For a while during the 1970s, even Maynard's late son Bentley* actually studied with Stevens. This of course proved exactly how well that ''The Boss'' regarded Roy Stevens.

So of course this upset many people. There always exists a certain mindset that doesn't care for another person's success. They troll, hair split, and seek attention by whittling others down. In Delano's case? He likes to point out that I'm not always brief in my posts. So what? If the material is helpful? Why not examine it and see how it works? Otherwise, just go away.

As for me? I'd rather work on practicing the trumpet and becoming more successful. That and sharing with others. Taking joy in their successes. I want to be a POSITIVE influence. Not a negative one. That and never put anyone down. At least that is, someone who doesn't deserve it.

That's it for me on this part of the subject. I'll discuss the topic but not the troll. Not anymore that is. It never pays to feed them anyway.


*Little is known about Bentley Ferguson. We know that he studied trumpet with Roy Stevens and that he ''played bass'' in his later years. Then he died in a freak accident. I think that it was from a fall from a hotel balcony or window in Santa Barbara, CA.
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delano
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 28, 2021 10:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lionel wrote:
That and never put anyone down. At least that is, someone who doesn't deserve it.


There is a lot of great humour on this site. You only have to search for it.
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delano
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 28, 2021 11:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lionel wrote:

*(...) We know that he studied trumpet with Roy Stevens and that he ''played bass'' in his later years.


Another beauty in the context of this thread.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 28, 2021 12:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

delano wrote:
Lionel wrote:

*(...) We know that he studied trumpet with Roy Stevens and that he ''played bass'' in his later years.


Another beauty in the context of this thread.

Bentley did spend some time at Berklee and was there while I was there from what I recall.
The last time I met Maynard around 2000, I asked him when Bentley was at Berklee. Maynard had a little champagne buzz going on. He looked at me, shrugged his shoulders and said, I don't know!!! Had to laugh at his response.
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