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Yamaha Chicago differences


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picctpt33
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2021 4:46 pm    Post subject: Yamaha Chicago differences Reply with quote

Does anyone know what the difference between the second and third generations of the Yamaha Chicago C trumpets (9445CH) are?
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BraeGrimes
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2021 6:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The tuning slide is more 'square' whereas the previous was a rounded crook. The tail of the bell (the end toward the valve casing) is a different shape and is slightly narrower coming out of the casing. That's the main stuff.

It's funny, I really loved the II Gen NY Bb and II Gen CH C, and then the III Gen came out (which is actually marked as MK5) and I like the CH Bb and NY C with the YM bell! Crazy.
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uglylips
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2021 8:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have a related question. Does anyone know how to determine if an artist model is 1st, 2nd or 3rd generation? Are there obvious ways to determine this?
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Aspeyrer
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2021 10:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There are a couple general visual differences between the generations on the stock Chicago artist series;

Gen 1
-receiver is the “standard” Yamaha receiver, tapered cylindrical shape.
-tuning crook is semi-squared looking with a standard Yamaha waterkey assembly.
-pinky hook fully soldered to leadpipe

Gen 2
-receiver has a “ring” on the end, most visually obvious change
-tuning crook is semi round, more like a “D” shape. On the C trumpets, this waterkey assembly is the same as the Gen 1 but the Gen 2 Bb has the same assembly as the Gen 3 C.
-pinky hook “floating” soldered about 33% to leadpipe. Same as Gen 3

Gen 3
-Receiver is the same as the Gen 2
-on C trumpet, tuning crook shape is more like Gen 1, semi square, but has a larger waterkey, screw and waterkey assembly, same/similar to Gen 2 Bb.

Not so familiar with Gen 3 Bb

There are definitely more differences between the generations, but these are generally easy to spot even on pictures/videos.

I’m happy to learn if there are any other visual differences. I believe they started marking all their bells with the “YS” “YM” designations on the Gen 2 models.
Hope this helps.
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RETrumpet
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2021 11:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Easiest way (for me, at least) to spot a Gen 1 or Gen 2 is the third slide stop.

Gen 1 is in the brace between the main slide and third slide.

Gen 2 is on the side of the third slide. (It also still has the option to place it in the brace, but I find this deadens the sound slightly)

Gen 3's are definitely more nuanced....

(BraeGrimes - That NYS-III YM might be the best C trumpet ever made... it's ridiculously good...)
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Bb: Bach-in-name-only, 70s(?) Committee, YTR-8335S(2), Conn 22B, King 2070SGX
C: Bach 229- MK slide/pipe
D/Eb: YTR-761
Picc: Stomvi Master, Couesnon Monopole
Cornet: Schilke A2C, '23 Buescher
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Letstalktrumpet
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 23, 2021 4:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

RETrumpet wrote:
Easiest way (for me, at least) to spot a Gen 1 or Gen 2 is the third slide stop.

Gen 1 is in the brace between the main slide and third slide.

Gen 2 is on the side of the third slide. (It also still has the option to place it in the brace, but I find this deadens the sound slightly)

Gen 3's are definitely more nuanced....

(BraeGrimes - That NYS-III YM might be the best C trumpet ever made... it's ridiculously good...)



My gen 1 Chicago from 2005 has a 3rd valve stop on the side of the third slide.
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RETrumpet
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 23, 2021 8:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Letstalktrumpet wrote:

My gen 1 Chicago from 2005 has a 3rd valve stop on the side of the third slide.


I stand corrected.

I had the 8xxx Xeno's in my head for whatever reason.
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Bb: Bach-in-name-only, 70s(?) Committee, YTR-8335S(2), Conn 22B, King 2070SGX
C: Bach 229- MK slide/pipe
D/Eb: YTR-761
Picc: Stomvi Master, Couesnon Monopole
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AJCarter
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 23, 2021 8:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I believe only the NY models have the marking of YS or YM, since they can have either. The YS bell on the Chicago is different than the YS of the NY.

Playing wise the gen 3 Chicago C is unreal. I feel like it plays itself almost. I have a gen 1 Chicago that I updated with a gen 2 pipe and while it made it much better, then gen 3 still makes it feel and sound like a lead pipe.

Haven't done a Gen 3 NY-YM, but I do know I preferred the Gen 2 NY-YM to the YS. Wish I could have a Chicago but with a YM bell.
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agroovin48
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 23, 2021 9:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What does YS and YM stand for?
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Jerry
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 23, 2021 10:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If I had to guess, I would guess Yellow brass Small, equivalent to a Bach 229;
Yellow brass Medium, equivalent to a Bach 239.

This is just a guess.
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agroovin48
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 23, 2021 11:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Yamaha web site does not have information about YM and YS either. However, both the Chicago and New York models have a 4 7/8" heavy bell.
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RETrumpet
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 23, 2021 12:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jerry wrote:
If I had to guess, I would guess Yellow brass Small, equivalent to a Bach 229;
Yellow brass Medium, equivalent to a Bach 239.

This is just a guess.


I had the chance to play both side by side at NAMM and talked to Bob Malone while I was there. He said more than half the players he talked to that year couldn't tell the difference.

The bells are very much proprietary, but I would concur that S is small and M is medium.

That said the two horns are quite close and both fall in between the Bach 229 and 239 in my opinion.

My feeling overall was that the YS was a little quicker, but you lost just a bit of ability to color the edges. I preferred the YM, but both were stunningly good.
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Bb: Bach-in-name-only, 70s(?) Committee, YTR-8335S(2), Conn 22B, King 2070SGX
C: Bach 229- MK slide/pipe
D/Eb: YTR-761
Picc: Stomvi Master, Couesnon Monopole
Cornet: Schilke A2C, '23 Buescher
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agroovin48
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 23, 2021 1:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

After digging around a little on the Yamana web site I found the answer to my question. The YM and YS refers to the bell flare. The YM bell flare is slightly deeper or steeper than the YS and offers a fuller and richer sound especially in the C Trumpet in a concert hall. It does not refer to small and medium as the bells are the same diameter.
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Alan Cahill

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AJCarter
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 23, 2021 2:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

agroovin48 wrote:
The Yamaha web site does not have information about YM and YS either. However, both the Chicago and New York models have a 4 7/8" heavy bell.


Have you held these horns? I would very much question the designation of heavy compared to the Xeno line of C trumpets, or other makers such as Bach and Shires. The Yamaha artist models are very light in the hand, or perhaps they're just incredibly balanced; but I still wouldn't use the term heavy even if Yamaha claims that.
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agroovin48
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 23, 2021 3:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No, I have not held them. You be the judge. All I have posted is what I have read on Yamaha's web site. If it feels light to you I can't argue with you.
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Alan Cahill

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Letstalktrumpet
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 23, 2021 3:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AJCarter wrote:
agroovin48 wrote:
The Yamaha web site does not have information about YM and YS either. However, both the Chicago and New York models have a 4 7/8" heavy bell.


Have you held these horns? I would very much question the designation of heavy compared to the Xeno line of C trumpets, or other makers such as Bach and Shires. The Yamaha artist models are very light in the hand, or perhaps they're just incredibly balanced; but I still wouldn't use the term heavy even if Yamaha claims that.


Not a C but my Chicago is noticeably heavier than my 37.
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agroovin48
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 23, 2021 3:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

After checking the Yamaha web site again I should clarify that they are inconsistent in their designations of weight. New York model is listed as weight "heavy", the Chicago does not have the same listing, only the bell diameter. So, I am assuming that the weight is referring to the trumpet as a whole and not necessarily the bell. Sorry to ruffle anyone's skirts over that scandalous misstatement.
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Alan Cahill

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BraeGrimes
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 23, 2021 6:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

uglylips wrote:
I have a related question. Does anyone know how to determine if an artist model is 1st, 2nd or 3rd generation? Are there obvious ways to determine this?


Probably the easiest way to tell is the serial number. The Gen I instruments are all 6-digit, Gen II/III all start with a letter (either C or D) in the serial.
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Brae Grimes
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BraeGrimes
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 23, 2021 6:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just to be clear on bells:

Chicago C Gen III - YSs Bell (it's essentially the same flare, but modified as I mentioned above)
New York C Gen III - YS Bell
New York 'Boston' C Gen III - YM Bell

On weight:

Personally, I find them all to be around the same weight as traditional counter-parts (Bach, Schilke, Getzen, etc), but just balanced differently. I'm sure numbers will vary between those aforementioned brands, maybe even in arbitrary amounts; but in terms of how it is balanced in the hand is different.
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wilder
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 23, 2021 8:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

RETrumpet wrote:
Jerry wrote:
If I had to guess, I would guess Yellow brass Small, equivalent to a Bach 229;
Yellow brass Medium, equivalent to a Bach 239.

This is just a guess.


I had the chance to play both side by side at NAMM and talked to Bob Malone while I was there. He said more than half the players he talked to that year couldn't tell the difference.

The bells are very much proprietary, but I would concur that S is small and M is medium.

That said the two horns are quite close and both fall in between the Bach 229 and 239 in my opinion.

My feeling overall was that the YS was a little quicker, but you lost just a bit of ability to color the edges. I preferred the YM, but both were stunningly good.
The Bach 239 is the standard bell, the 229 is the bigger bell. jw
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