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Benge Flugelhorn



 
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3score
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 25, 2020 12:13 am    Post subject: Benge Flugelhorn Reply with quote

Any trumpet players out there who play a Benge flugel? I know that the great album "The Classical Flugelhorn" by Frank Fezishin is played on a modified Benge with a #3 bell, but are there any other famous players who use a Benge flugel?
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GizB
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 28, 2020 11:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I play a Benge 5 flugel I've had since the 70s. My fame is subject to debate, however.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xoYzawnDGP0&list=RDxoYzawnDGP0&start_radio=1&t=0

Second from the right. Seven Minutes has one of the most-sampled bass lines. Sometimes the samplers include the horn lines.
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dershem
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 28, 2020 5:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

One of the guys in my Monday night band plays on a Benge Flugel. It can have a very nice sound. He will never be famous for it, though.
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Uberopa
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 28, 2020 7:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The late Guido Basso played one for awhile. He found a forever horn in a vintage Besson, I hink.
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dstpt
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 28, 2020 8:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

(Not famous, but) I just picked up a Benge no. 3 bell flugel from a collector that is thinning the herd due to his age (82yo) and not wanting to leave a bunch of horns for his daughter to sell. I may keep, I may sell, but I probably need to just play it and pass it on in order to stop my hoarding of all-things trumpet. It should arrive in a few days; he just shipped it today. I have a refurbished Couesnon coming from Tom Green as well as my BAC 3+1 custom with which he's redoing the finish, but those may be a few weeks. I do have a Yamaha 635TS that I recently got back from Tom's re-silver work to test against the Benge, so I'll re-post to this thread after comparing.
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LakeTahoeTrpt
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 29, 2020 12:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm on my second Benge flugel, both #3 bells. The #5 bell seems to be the most coveted, but I've not played one. I've enjoyed both my Benge flugels and likely would still be playing the first one I bought, but for the impulse buy I made 13 years ago: a Taylor Phat Boy flugel that was really cool looking, but sounded really airy; there was no core to the sound. It might have been a great solo jazz horn for someone looking for a particular sound, but was impossible to play in a section. The third valve chronically stuck, as well, no matter how many times I had someone fiddle with it. But I digress. I ended up taking a loss on the Taylor by finding another used Benge, and I took the Benge and $800 for the Taylor. I like the sound of the Benge, the intonation is nice, the bore is larger than most flugels, and it has a first valve thumb hook, which I like.
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dstpt
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 29, 2020 3:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Also, when I was quickly researching Benge flugels prior to the purchase, I came across these TH threads...

https://www.trumpetherald.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=83377&sid=4d3e7fbef195da5c362aea9e4969df0a

https://www.google.com/search?q=benge+flugelhorn+site:www.trumpetherald.com&client=safari&rls=en&sxsrf=ALeKk00zKPNJxj6LBjR7qyrGz-2-51i_XQ:1588158220746&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjlyOC0vo3pAhVFL6wKHQyDCf0QrQIoBDABegQIAhAM&biw=1674&bih=1034

https://www.trumpetherald.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=73481&sid=1d6560b173ff32db545bb0f6181bb171

https://www.trumpetherald.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=12011&sid=31b24a823cfdc11a17683ed33cac80cc

https://www.trumpetherald.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=129551&sid=b19a16a2f51153b2970e2a3e72b67024

https://www.trumpetherald.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=139647&sid=f775d598aa148de17f2b86702d3385d4

https://www.trumpetherald.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=83377&sid=4d3e7fbef195da5c362aea9e4969df0a

Many of these threads have mentioned that the coveted, big, luscious sound of the extra large #5 bell (FL5, 5FL?) also discuss the intonation issues with that bell, and that much of the time, players have found pitch centering solutions by making mpc changes. One said that a mpc with a tighter backbore seemed to be key, that mpcs with wider backbores made the pitch centering much worse with that bell. Contributions to many threads have talked about how the pitch is better on the #3 bell, and that it is a more middle-of-the-road, section-matching sound. The collector from whom I purchased the #3 (which may arrive by tomorrow) said he also had a #5 but could never get it in tune. All of these discussions seem to be saying the same thing about that bell, but some players have found solutions to the pitch issues by trying different mpcs. Some don’t care for the big sound of the #5 bell, and btw, one provided the measurement of the #5 bell at 6 1/8-inch rim, which is a fairly common size for many flugels. I’m guessing the rims may be similar with all three models(?) but that the change is more in the size of the bell throat just prior to the flare. Maybe someone can confirm.
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Christian K. Peters
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 29, 2020 7:00 am    Post subject: Benge flugelhorn Reply with quote

Hello all,
I had a Benge FL5 for a few years. It was a 75 vintage, and was considered THE flugel in the day. It replaced a Getzen 4 valve which I had bought in HS. The Getzen seemed to be brighter to my ears as everybody was playing Yamaha and Cousenon around me. I opted for the Benge when I found one. The bell is huge, and it had more of the sound I was looking for..It was truly a secondary instrument as it did not get the playing time, though the section agreed that every time a bucket mute was called for, we played flugels. As a result I found that the Benge was real squirrelly in teh upper range. At that time people were saying the FL3 probably would have been a better choice, while a couple of folk were talking of the 1 bell unicorn. I ended up selling the horn and bought a Schilke. The smaller bore is easier to get around on and plays as nice as I need.
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3score
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PostPosted: Sun May 03, 2020 12:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dstpt wrote:
Also, when I was quickly researching Benge flugels prior to the purchase, I came across these TH threads...

https://www.trumpetherald.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=83377&sid=4d3e7fbef195da5c362aea9e4969df0a

https://www.google.com/search?q=benge+flugelhorn+site:www.trumpetherald.com&client=safari&rls=en&sxsrf=ALeKk00zKPNJxj6LBjR7qyrGz-2-51i_XQ:1588158220746&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjlyOC0vo3pAhVFL6wKHQyDCf0QrQIoBDABegQIAhAM&biw=1674&bih=1034

https://www.trumpetherald.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=73481&sid=1d6560b173ff32db545bb0f6181bb171

https://www.trumpetherald.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=12011&sid=31b24a823cfdc11a17683ed33cac80cc

https://www.trumpetherald.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=129551&sid=b19a16a2f51153b2970e2a3e72b67024

https://www.trumpetherald.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=139647&sid=f775d598aa148de17f2b86702d3385d4

https://www.trumpetherald.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=83377&sid=4d3e7fbef195da5c362aea9e4969df0a

Many of these threads have mentioned that the coveted, big, luscious sound of the extra large #5 bell (FL5, 5FL?) also discuss the intonation issues with that bell, and that much of the time, players have found pitch centering solutions by making mpc changes. One said that a mpc with a tighter backbore seemed to be key, that mpcs with wider backbores made the pitch centering much worse with that bell. Contributions to many threads have talked about how the pitch is better on the #3 bell, and that it is a more middle-of-the-road, section-matching sound. The collector from whom I purchased the #3 (which may arrive by tomorrow) said he also had a #5 but could never get it in tune. All of these discussions seem to be saying the same thing about that bell, but some players have found solutions to the pitch issues by trying different mpcs. Some don’t care for the big sound of the #5 bell, and btw, one provided the measurement of the #5 bell at 6 1/8-inch rim, which is a fairly common size for many flugels. I’m guessing the rims may be similar with all three models(?) but that the change is more in the size of the bell throat just prior to the flare. Maybe someone can confirm.




I haven't had any intonation problems with my Benge #5 bell from the 1980s I use a Dennis Wick 2F for solo work (the deepest mouthpice I have ever seen). If I'm playing in a section, I will use a standard size for better blending.
The sound is truly amazing--better than anything I've ever heard. That is why I was wondering if anyone knew of any famous players who use Benge flugels.

Regarding the bell size, it is more about the flare than the end diameter. Look at a picture and you will see.
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dstpt
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PostPosted: Sun May 03, 2020 5:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

3score wrote:
I haven't had any intonation problems with my Benge #5 bell from the 1980s I use a Dennis Wick 2F for solo work (the deepest mouthpice I have ever seen). If I'm playing in a section, I will use a standard size for better blending.
The sound is truly amazing--better than anything I've ever heard. That is why I was wondering if anyone knew of any famous players who use Benge flugels.

Regarding the bell size, it is more about the flare than the end diameter. Look at a picture and you will see.

Right. Well, I don't know of any famous players that have played Benge flugels, but your first question was if any players out here were Benge players, so I can share my own impressions having received the Benge #3 bell flugel a couple of days ago.

I, too, use a Denis Wick 2FL as my main mpc and have for many years. I only have one other flugel in the house for comparison, a completely reburbished Yamaha 635TS, so I went back and forth a little bit between the two, and here's what I have found about the two basic elements of sound and pitch:

Benge #3:
• rich, robust quality of tone
• solid intonation from bottom to top, except for all three notes below low C with 3rd valve are sharp.

Yamaha 635T:
• rich, robust quality of tone; somewhat more dusky or slightly diffused compared to the Benge.
• solid intonation from bottom to top; trigger on 3rd slide helps with centering low 3rd valve notes.

As we know, there is no 3rd trigger on the Benge, and the previous owner told me that he always pulled the 3rd slide a little (0.25 inch), so that he wouldn’t have to extend so much on the 1st slide saddle. Other than those three notes below low C being sharp (which can be adjusted with the 1st slide saddle), the overall scale is very good.

The tone of the Benge has more “point” to it to my ear. IOW, there are significant overtones in this sound that would make it easier to be heard if particularly playing a solo over a thick big band texture. Lots of power in the tone. It’s just there in front of you with no apologies from the instrument, so to speak. If you back off, you can get closer to a more intimate quality of tone, a la Chet Baker delivery…a least, that’s what comes to mind when playing it.
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delano
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PostPosted: Mon May 04, 2020 9:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

For flügels I don't know, I always use the information of the great Jim Donaldson of The Trumpet Gearhead. Great stuff. He has a fabulous analysis of flügelhorns.
This about the Benge flügels:

Flugelhorns that cost less, but that you probably don't want:

(...)
Speaking of large bore flugels, Benge during its LA and UMI incarnations made 3 models of flugels, cleverly designed with a horizontally adjusted first valve slide and vertical third valve slide for a unique look. If you want an inexpensive large bore flugel, the old Benges are probably the way to go. The Benge #5 with a huge conical bell is still something of a cult horn. It has the most wonderful sound but the intonation is like wrestling a pair of seals (don't ask me how I know). The #3 doesn't quite have the sound, but the intonation won't scare the children either. Generally they sound pretty good, are cheap at this point, and are readily available.

https://everythingtrumpet.com/gearhead/Flugelhorn_Guide.html
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Stan Harrison
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 01, 2020 11:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I played a Benge 3 Flugelhorn like 35/40 years ago. It is a different design than standard and has a .460 bore like a trumpet instead of a smaller bore like most standard Flugelhorns. I think it's designed to more Readily adapt to from the Trumpet. And I think it had a bit of a brighter tone than other Flugels. all depends on the sound you want
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Danbassin
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 02, 2021 7:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cool to see this thread come up!

I've been playing a Benge 3X Flugel for a little less than a year now, which means I haven't been able to try it out in a big band, though I have found excuses to record myself playing it for the Zoom services the church where I Music Direct has been putting on.

Behind the bell, there is a nice, rich and fluffy sound which isn't quite as rich and fluffy as the 5X Flugels I've played here and there in the past, but when compared with that horn, the 3X has an evenness of scale and few if any 'problem areas' pitch-wise. I do notice that beneath the staff things run quite sharp, and I also had my local tech fabricate a 3rd valve trigger, as sometimes it felt like the C# and low G/F# were asking for more 1st slide pull than would be practical.

While much has been said about the .460 'trumpet-style bore' on the Benges, when compared with the .401-.445 range of classic flugels, I haven't found the blow or response on this horn to be drastically more trumpet-like or less idiomatically flugelhorn-like than others I've played in the past.

Does anyone on this thread with Benge Flugel experience have leads on aftermarket lead pipes for these horns? I'd be curious to see how that piece of hardware might help with the low reg sharpness. Finally, in those aforementioned recording sessions for my church gig, I was surprised to find that when 'live recording' with a mic out in the room, the articulations can have a bit of trumpet 'edge' to them, and the overall sound for the people wasn't nearly as 'fluffy' as things felt behind the bell.

More to follow, and happy practicing!
-DB
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DJtpt31
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 04, 2021 10:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Danbassin wrote:
Cool to see this thread come up!

I've been playing a Benge 3X Flugel for a little less than a year now, which means I haven't been able to try it out in a big band, though I have found excuses to record myself playing it for the Zoom services the church where I Music Direct has been putting on.

Behind the bell, there is a nice, rich and fluffy sound which isn't quite as rich and fluffy as the 5X Flugels I've played here and there in the past, but when compared with that horn, the 3X has an evenness of scale and few if any 'problem areas' pitch-wise. I do notice that beneath the staff things run quite sharp, and I also had my local tech fabricate a 3rd valve trigger, as sometimes it felt like the C# and low G/F# were asking for more 1st slide pull than would be practical.

While much has been said about the .460 'trumpet-style bore' on the Benges, when compared with the .401-.445 range of classic flugels, I haven't found the blow or response on this horn to be drastically more trumpet-like or less idiomatically flugelhorn-like than others I've played in the past.

Does anyone on this thread with Benge Flugel experience have leads on aftermarket lead pipes for these horns? I'd be curious to see how that piece of hardware might help with the low reg sharpness. Finally, in those aforementioned recording sessions for my church gig, I was surprised to find that when 'live recording' with a mic out in the room, the articulations can have a bit of trumpet 'edge' to them, and the overall sound for the people wasn't nearly as 'fluffy' as things felt behind the bell.

More to follow, and happy practicing!
-DB


You might want to check out "Benge Trumpet Fanatics" on FB. They buy/sell and talk Benge anything there.
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JHirakawa
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2023 2:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm almost embarrassed to say, I own a Benge 3 UMI Flugelhorn. I got it in a traded even-up at a local instrument exchange store for King trumpet that my daughter used when she was in 6th grade band, and a very nice looking silver Besson 10-10 trombone that I picked up cheap from Goodwill. The flugelhorn was almost in mint condition. All the parts look Benge and it plays like a Benge too. Don't diss me too much. I own a real Benge trumpet.

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:1947_Chicago_Benge_Trumpet.jpg

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Benge_3_Flugelhorn.jpg
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shofarguy
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2023 8:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I had the privilege of playing two brand new Benge 5 flugelhorns, back in college, circa 1980-81. The Stage Band director bought them from our local music store. I purchased a Bach 1-1/2(C?)FL mouthpiece so that I could play them.

I never was aware of any intonation problems with either horn. Could it have been a bad ear on my part? I suppose, but I had developed a good amount of relative pitch by that time after several years of À ccapella singing in high level choral groups. After spending time around the Kanstul factory and with Byron Autrey over the phone, I suspect it might have something to do with the individual bell branch of each horn. Perhaps, some were cut inaccurately after they were drawn, or some formed on the mandrel just a tad differently. I really don't know. It's nice to read that someone else found their Benge 5 to play in tune.

Later on in the 2000s, I encountered two more such flugelhorn and both had horrible intonation. Same exact mouthpiece. I wondered how I could ever have missed such a glaring fault!

However, no one ever overlooked the sound!
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