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ECLtmpt2 Veteran Member
Joined: 21 Feb 2021 Posts: 147
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Posted: Sun Feb 28, 2021 10:33 pm Post subject: Heavy Weight Caps and Dinosaurs? |
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I've been away from the horn(s) for a few years now, concentrating on arranger/workstations and creating lead sheets from music not typically found in lead sheet form.
Returning to playing my horns again I've been going through all my 'stuff' and came across 4 sets of heavy-weight bottom caps I used to have on my horns including 2 custom sets from Pickett Brass.
Have these 'toys' gone the way of the dinosaur?
(I hope this topic belongs here and not in come-back players.) |
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HaveTrumpetWillTravel Heavyweight Member
Joined: 30 Jan 2018 Posts: 1020 Location: East Asia
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Posted: Mon Mar 01, 2021 3:24 am Post subject: |
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Still popular! I think they're something people cycle through as they try out different gear. I like that they make my valve block easier to hold, but I can't hear a difference. Do you like yours? Still use them? |
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darksmoke Regular Member
Joined: 27 Apr 2020 Posts: 46 Location: Washington
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Posted: Mon Mar 01, 2021 5:18 am Post subject: |
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They're definitely far from fossilized.
I got the Bach heavy gold caps used to test out for myself (double weight of stock Bach caps) and couldn't accurately distinguish anything from them. It sounded a bit different and 'wonky' to me but that was about it, couldn't tell exactly what it was about them and my horn, but it just felt a little off. Almost wanted to take them off right then and there to switch back to the regulars I had always used before. Misunderstood change can often be easy to associate with negativity. I kept them on for a few months and never figured out what they were about- no difference in anything. Fast forward a bit and I got the medium 1/2" Harrelson bottom caps (quite a step up in mass, although I wouldn't go any further myself at this point) and it was there that I noticed a difference. I've significantly added to it over time after just changing the bottom caps in further derivations of dampening.
It really does seem like the advertising is accurate in what dampening in general describes. I now want to willingly get out and practice to work purely on my sound and technique with the changes I've made from my default Commercial model. I'll keep it short here, but perhaps the most astounding difference for me was projection based on anecdotal evidence I've gotten in the past few months. I can still hear myself with the lightweight bell and thinner tubing slides, and yet the projection very much seems to be there around the board without me ever thinking about it at all in the moment. I am unsure how the weight distribution works in any way (ask one of the many veterans here perhaps), but my valve block cluster is the main victim of my acoustic experiments. I do like the improved ergonomics in addition as well.
I honestly feel comfortable in saying that adding a bit of mass overall has significantly helped me personally reach where I'm at and without I wouldn't be nearly as good a player. That said, I assume I'm largely in the minority in terms of enjoying the weight changes and perhaps it's me, perhaps it's the light horn characteristics, it's likely a bit of both. People usually say they cannot hear themselves and that without the added mass and going back to the default horn their sound seems more alive and jumps out; however, with a simple rational thought I would have to point to the fact that the added mass aids in projection, thus carrying the sound further away from you to the audience out front and making it harder for yourself to hear (this is not much of an issue with my bell and good listening ears). I could be dead wrong and they could be completely right in that adding mass was a utter detriment to them, but I feel that people are generally quick to judge and write off stuff sooner than they should simply based off the success I've gained. I do not think of myself as very different from the average player here in terms of embouchure, breathing, and all that. But perhaps I am very well different in regards to the average. Although I wouldn't be able to tell you why.
However, going back twelve steps to your initial question: many, although certainly not the majority, of players use weighted bottom caps, and at that usually only on certain types (Bb, C, flugel, etc.) or specific models they own and not others. Some just utilize the old dime in the third cap or use a heavy only on the third instead. Some use one on the first and third- as energy transfer supports doing. Equipment changes here seem entirely personal much of the time and player specific and you never really know until you can try it yourself. You very well may not notice any difference in your playing
with the caps and I would suggest giving it some time and having a trustee hear your sound out front in person to make a comparison. If you do you decide whether it's for better or for worse. Revisit them at a later date perhaps. _________________ Bach 1B
-Reeves 40ES DM
-Giardinelli 4*
-Callet SC6 |
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OldSchoolEuph Heavyweight Member
Joined: 07 Apr 2012 Posts: 2426
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Posted: Mon Mar 01, 2021 6:02 am Post subject: |
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In the mid 1970s, Bach changed from 2-piece to 1-piece casings. This took mass out of the center of the horn and some noticed that lack of inertia. Heavy caps really took off around this time as a result. Subsequently, many players who had opted for lighter weight horns than a Bach generally, found that they liked that the feel of that added mass in the valve block when trying caps on their horns. The weighted cap market continued to expand. With the more recent trend toward heavier horns generally, the market for these caps has slowed a bit, but there are still plenty of people out there with newer Bachs and lightweight horns who like weighted caps. I don't see that changing any time soon. _________________ Ron Berndt
www.trumpet-history.com
2017 Austin Winds Stage 466
1962 Mt. Vernon Bach 43
1954 Holton 49 Stratodyne
1927 Conn 22B
1957 Holton 27 cornet
1985 Yamaha YEP-621
1975 Yamaha YEP-321 Custom
1965 Besson Baritone
1975 Olds Recording R-20 |
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JayKosta Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2018 Posts: 3276 Location: Endwell NY USA
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Posted: Mon Mar 01, 2021 7:39 am Post subject: |
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I haven't tried heavy caps, or adding weight, but I do use an o-ring inside the bottom caps. And I tighten the bottom caps only snug enough to prevent them from loosening (the bottom of the valve casing pressing against the o-ring).
I like the sound better with the o-rings than with just plain caps. _________________ Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'. |
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mafields627 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 09 Nov 2001 Posts: 3774 Location: AL
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Posted: Mon Mar 01, 2021 8:26 am Post subject: |
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I use a set of Pickett bottom caps on my frankenhorn. It has a Getzen valve block, Kanstul 37 bell & 25ish leadpipe, and was assembled by Eclipse. It was pretty squirrely above the staff the heavy caps helps it slot the way I like. Once I put them on I have never taken them off. _________________ --Matt--
No representation is made that the quality of this post is greater than the quality of that of any other poster. Oh, and get a teacher! |
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Dale Proctor Heavyweight Member
Joined: 26 May 2005 Posts: 9343 Location: Heart of Dixie
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Posted: Mon Mar 01, 2021 8:59 am Post subject: |
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I’ve tried the Bach accessory heavy bottom caps on the 3 Strads I own (Bb, C, and cornet), and didn’t really like them on any. They are all standard-weight instruments, and on both the ML 43 Bb trumpet and the large bore 184 cornet, the tone sounded slightly deadened and the upper register took a bit more effort. On the ML 239 C trumpet, I didn’t notice either of those effects, but the heavy caps definitely made the typical C trumpet “problem notes” even more out of tune. _________________ "Brass bands are all very well in their place - outdoors and several miles away ." - Sir Thomas Beecham |
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ECLtmpt2 Veteran Member
Joined: 21 Feb 2021 Posts: 147
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Posted: Mon Mar 01, 2021 9:06 am Post subject: |
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Thanks for the input. When I put the horns up I put back all the original caps and stored the heavy weights. For the Schilke I had/have a set of factory heavy-weights (Silver) and a heaver set of Pickett (gold) caps. I did the same for my Bach 180S37 (pre-strike Elkhart horn, circa 1991).
I sold the Schilke to help fund my arranger/workstation so those caps will probably be put up for sale sometime but I did put the BACH OEM heavyweights back on the 37. I guess I'll play around with the Pickett's heavier caps as I regain my embouchure. I've always been a fan of Chris Botti and love his tone and on the Bach the extra mass seems to help darken my tone/timbre, perhaps dampens some of the higher overtones. Dale: I haven't noticed any upper register differences but I'm still rebuilding and not pushing anything yet. That's pure speculation. I suppose I could record it (SM-58 is my best mike right now) and check it out with Audacity when I feel like messing around someday! It may all be just in my head.
I also sold the Bach C but never put caps on it. After school I almost never used the horn, I practically gave it away to a kid working on his masters at UNT.
If I really want dark, I also have a Phaeton, the heavily braced Monette wan-a-be. That doesn't need any extra weight/mass. It's an interesting piece of gear if nothing else. I got that from a music student that used it as collateral on a loan he never paid back. I know nothing about Phaetons??.
Anyway thanks for the info, I just wanted to know what the current thinking is on heavy weight caps. I see Pickett doesn't advertise them any more and it got me thinking. |
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Bflatman Heavyweight Member
Joined: 01 Nov 2016 Posts: 720
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Posted: Mon Mar 15, 2021 5:50 am Post subject: |
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If I dont watch my playing the mouthpiece can loosen slightly and not have a solid connection in the receiver, firming it up again improves the tone
If I replace a standard mouthpiece with a heavyweight mouthpiece of similar spec there is a noticeable richening of tone
If I replace a heavyweight c cup mouthpiece with a normal weight deep cup mouthpiece the tones of each can be almost indistiguishable.
It I replace a standard mouthpiece in a rich playing horn and the combination plays richly with a much deeper mouthpiece the tones can become dead sounding.
We live with resonance and the tones we love or suffer are the result of our gear mix its collective resonance and our playing.
Valve blocks are resonant like any other element but the extent of its
resonant effect varies.
Placing heavy caps on the valve block or even simply loosening or tightening the existing caps can affect this valve block resonance and like mouthpiece weight variations it can affect the resonance of the instrument positively or negatively.
Heavy caps can deaden undesirable higher frequencies and enhance the richness of the remaining lower frequencies or if the horn has good balanced tone already heavy caps can make the tone poorer.
If the valve block is heavy the influence of heavy caps may be unnoticed.
An instrument maker creates an instrument that satisfies their tonal concepts but these concepts might not be shared by us.
If I can tune my instrument to meet my tonal requirements with a mouthpiece change or a heavy bottom cap I am going to do it, and you might not believe it works because you havent experienced it but that does not make my experience invalid.
But the one thing heavy caps big mouthpieces heavy mouthpieces or anything will not help me to achieve is sounding like chet or anyone else.
That takes a lot of work in the woodshed.
But if its a choice between buying a 3000 dollar strad or buying a 50 dollar heavy bottom cap to get where I want to be I will take the 50 dollar cap and thank you graciously. _________________ Conn 80a Cornet
Boosey & Hawkes Emperor Trumpet
Olds Fullerton Special Trumpet
Selmer Invicta Trumpet
Yamaha YCR 2330II Cornet
Selmer Student Trumpet
Bohland and Fuchs peashooter Trumpet
Boosey and Hawkes Regent Cornet
Lark M4045 Cornet |
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