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The real differences between cornet and trumpet


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aquaries
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 02, 2021 8:29 pm    Post subject: long cornet vs trumpet Reply with quote

Hi - I'm enjoying soaking up this thread. It makes me wonder about the long cornet. On a Mendez it looks to me the valve block is positioned same as the trumpet. I'm wondering if a person was to use the same mouthpiece size on a Mendez trumpet & a Mendez long cornet would the sound be the same?
Cordially,
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Dale Proctor
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 03, 2021 6:49 am    Post subject: Re: long cornet vs trumpet Reply with quote

aquaries wrote:
Hi - I'm enjoying soaking up this thread. It makes me wonder about the long cornet. On a Mendez it looks to me the valve block is positioned same as the trumpet. I'm wondering if a person was to use the same mouthpiece size on a Mendez trumpet & a Mendez long cornet would the sound be the same?
Cordially,


I’ve never really understood the purpose of those trumpet-shaped cornets that some companies produced. It’s basically their trumpet model with a slightly different leadpipe and cornet mouthpiece receiver. I’ve not played one, but I’d guess they sound a lot more like the trumpet they really are than a cornet.
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Bflatman
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 09, 2021 10:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Dale

I have heard it expressed and I have no reason to disbelieve it, that Conn who were one of the first to create the hybrid long cornet, did it for sales reasons to boost cornet sales in a shrinking market for cornets.

It was said at the time that the trumpet had became the instrument of choice and the cornet was not seeing many sales.

The cornet was suffering because it was not as penetrating a tone and looked old fashioned.

The long cornet could live alongside the trumpets and looked like a trumpet and with a trumpet mouthpiece could hold its own while with a cornet mouthpiece it could sound cornetish.

I also read that the exercise was such a marketing success that Conn shifted from shepherds crook and short cornet designs to long cornet designs in the early to mid 1900's.

I find that hard to accept because the 37a/38a connstellation of 1966, and the 76a connquest of 1968 were both short models.

I guess we cant believe everything we read.

I have no knowledge of the truth of this but I offer it as background in good faith.

Certainly I would agree that the long cornet is more of a marketing exercise than anything else.

Having said that I like them very much.

I would cherish a 6a late model but my personal favorite would be the 10a late model Artist. If only to be able to say I am a Conn Artist performer. I think that would nail it for me.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 10, 2021 4:48 am    Post subject: Re: long cornet vs trumpet Reply with quote

Dale Proctor wrote:
I’ve never really understood the purpose of those trumpet-shaped cornets that some companies produced. It’s basically their trumpet model with a slightly different leadpipe and cornet mouthpiece receiver. I’ve not played one, but I’d guess they sound a lot more like the trumpet they really are than a cornet.


One of the things I personally like most about the previous century is the amount of experimentation that people did (I know of a plane with jet engines on top of the wing instead of under them just because the builder wanted to know if that would work as well...turns out it did, just wasn't practical). The musical instruments from that time period reflect the same mindset. Knowledge was hard to come by and manufacturers had to find out what worked by themselves. Not everything they built was equally successful but apparently at the time enough people liked it to make a living out of it. My guess would be that the long cornet was a failed attempt to solve a problem like 'something cooler looking, more ergonomic than the cornet but not as piercing as the trumpet'. For the time, the small sacrifice in sound was probably worth it (not unlike how some players today just use a deep V mouthpiece to avoid the hassle of carrying a flugelhorn for a single song).

These days we tend to want to calculate and theorize everything before we commit any serious resources to it. Back in those days there was a lot more 'ok, let's try it and see if it works' and that resulted in some pretty unconventional (but rather cool) designs that wouldn't be made today (or only as one-off custom designs).
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 10, 2021 7:17 am    Post subject: Re: long cornet vs trumpet Reply with quote

hibidogrulez wrote:
My guess would be that the long cornet was a failed attempt to solve a problem like 'something cooler looking, more ergonomic than the cornet but not as piercing as the trumpet'. .


Actually Conn admitted it when describing their 8A Victor Slender Model cornet. "...slender, racy lines of the trumpet."
https://cderksen.home.xs4all.nl/Conn8A1932image.html
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 10, 2021 7:58 am    Post subject: Re: long cornet vs trumpet Reply with quote

Andy Cooper wrote:
Actually Conn admitted it when describing their 8A Victor Slender Model cornet. "...slender, racy lines of the trumpet."
https://cderksen.home.xs4all.nl/Conn8A1932image.html

Love the phrasing too: "slender, racy lines".

When I mentioned 'failed attempt' in my previous post, I meant from a modern perspective on what a proper cornet should be/sound like. The long cornet was obviously popular when they were made, even if the reason was mainly visual, and Conn no doubt sold a lot of them.
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Dale Proctor
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 10, 2021 10:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bflatman wrote:

...I also read that the exercise was such a marketing success that Conn shifted from shepherds crook and short cornet designs to long cornet designs in the early to mid 1900's.

I find that hard to accept because the 37a/38a connstellation of 1966, and the 76a connquest of 1968 were both short models.

I guess we cant believe everything we read.

I have no knowledge of the truth of this but I offer it as background in good faith...


Yes, Conn had a nice run of short cornets in the 1960s. I’ll add that the Conn 5A and 9A Victors were also true short cornets. My 9A fits fine in most cases made for short, shepherds crook cornets, and it is a fine instrument - it’s basically the short version of the Conn 10A.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 10, 2021 10:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

the 9a and 10a long cornet are drastically different. The 9a has the gigantic 485 bore, and the 10a has the smallest micro bore at .438.

the 9a is closer to the old 80a. By the way, the 80A is fantastic
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Dale Proctor
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 10, 2021 2:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

lipshurt wrote:
the 9a and 10a long cornet are drastically different. The 9a has the gigantic 485 bore, and the 10a has the smallest micro bore at .438.

the 9a is closer to the old 80a. By the way, the 80A is fantastic


Well, I meant they were similar in having a Coprion bell and leadpipe. Yes, all of Conn’s “real” cornets from the ‘60s had that same huge .484” bore. Other than sharing the same bore size, the 9A is nothing like the 80A, though. I’ve owned both, and while the 80A is a nice hybrid mix of cornet and trumpet, the 9A is a much better cornet.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 10, 2021 3:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You are right about the 80a. It’s a great trumpet. I even switched the leadpipe with a 22b pipe, and now it takes a trumpet shank. It’s great. I also have a great 80a with the regular cornet pipe. Plays the same. Good, like a real good trumpet though

I’ve never played a 9a, but I had two 38a cornets. Nice but way too big for me. My guess is the wrap of the 9a, with that small radius 180 degree bend will set up a nice resistance in the 485 bore. That is speculation though of course. 9a sure does look good
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Andy Cooper
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 12, 2021 4:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cornet Trumpet referring to the original article.

Just a couple of things in the comparison of cornets and trumpets.
OK - they are kind of tedious.
1. It has not been my experience that most trumpets and cornets have the same venturi size.(It's true that I once had a 50 or 60's Besson cornet with a venturi that was larger than the smallest portion of the receiver - but I assumed that was a defect.) Note, leadpipe venturi is the smallest part of the leadpipe, usually but not always where the leadpipe ends in the receiver. I mention this because it relates to the rate of taper of the leadpipe.

2. A tapered section at the end of the cornet leadpipe is not the same as a tapered section at the beginning of the trumpet bell. Because the accumulated lengths of tapered tubing total the same between two instruments does not mean that they are equivalent.

3. Trumpets and cornets tend to have their bell and leadpipe bracing at different points.

4. Using a cornet to trumpet mouthpiece adapter in comparisons is not the best way to do it unless you are using a custom made adapter that continues the cornet backbore taper and is the appropriate length. With most adapters, the cornet backbore just ends in an abrupt expansion. Sort of a second gap. It also gives you a longer backbore. Use matching bacbores - such as Warburton 8 cornet and Warburton 8 trumpet.

I warned you it would be tedious.
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blownchops
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 12, 2021 8:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bflatman wrote:
I was approached when i played peashooter trumpet and invited to play in a British Brass Band among the cornet section.

So I turned up with my peashooter and blended. I used a cornet style deep mouthpiece and a cornet style embouchure.

No problems there

Much later I set out to prove a trumpet can sound like a cornet so I took a BBB style shepherds crook cornet fitted with a trad BBB mouthpiece,

For comparison I took an olds special trumpet in nickel plate - a bright trumpet so I had a tough job of it. I like challenges

I put an ancient deep vee cornet mouthpiece in the trumpet with a converter.

I used the same cornet embouchure on both. In blind testing audience members could not tell the two apart except for one man, He was a musician and he said they sounded almost identical I agreed.

A trumpet can sound like a cornet It is down to the embouchure the mouthpiece and the tonal concept of the player.

I play on a range of cornets and trumpets and sound much the same on them all.

What is the real difference between trumpet and cornet not enough to even care.




When I was in high school I would often use cornet on wind ensemble pieces as it made a huge difference and the band director liked the tone for certain things.
I played in a semi-pro brass band through the end of my high school career. Mostly local band directors, college profs and people with music degrees selling cars with the occasional talented kid in the mix to get some young blood in the group.

We were not about to go on and win the NABBB competition by any means, but we were a pretty solid ensemble and played high level lit.
It would have been immediately noticeable has somebody showed up with a trumpet and tried to play along.

This leads me to believe that either you, or the ensemble, do not play well enough to distinguish the differences between the two.


I mean no insult or disrespect, but you post many (to me) crazy or outlandish statements as if they are divine fact, when I often find them radically off base. Most Th'ers just ignore them but they remind me of posts I read as a kid from users like captn Kirk or Tarhe33l Dad that ended up losing me money as I bought the vintage, worn out or unsuitable horns they recommended and then had to switch from when they did not work in a modern musical scholastic experience. I try and offer a voice to the contrary, so that in a few years when a young and impressionable trumpet player stumbles across this thread they do not come away with the wrong information.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 12, 2021 9:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I too notice a huge difference between cornet and trumpet in terms of the tone quality and the approach to playing them well.
I guess “trumpet players” ultimately come in two varieties— those who are cornetists at heart and those who are not.
None of my Bb cornets sound like my Bb trumpets (and I have more than 5+ of each type), at least the way I play them. The mouthpiece does play a big part in that, though.
The differences in tone and sound parallel the ensemble quality in which they are played.
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Bflatman
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 28, 2021 7:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

blownchops

Your comments are quite appropriate and there is no way I could be offended by a member who states his opinion honestly even if that opinion calls my posts into question or even calls them wrong and misleading.

If I cannot defend my posts then they should rightly be called misleading and wrong.

I should perhaps apologise if my posts appear to be dogmatic they are not meant to be, but are merely my own experience and I offer that as an alternate view if my experience supports it.

In the case of trumpet and cornet where I stated that I see no difference I offered a back to back blind test which I undertook some time ago as a test of the real detectable differences.

I took a bright sounding trumpet and a regular sounding cornet and put a deep cornet mouthpiece on the trumpet and a trad mouthpiece on the cornet and played the same piece to audiences which included a gigging musician and I played in the same manner on both instruments.

Playing the two instruments back to back I asked the opinions of the audiences if they could detect a difference or did they think the two instruments sound alike.

They were all unable to detect any difference in tone between the cornet and the trumpet, all except the musician who said they were almost identical but a very slight difference in tone existed.

This similarity of tone between cornet and trumpet was not my opinion but it was the opinion of randomly chosen audiences I conducted the test with.

I think it is reasonable to claim that the two instruments sound almost identical considering that audiences cannot detect a difference.

After all we play to audiences and if the audiences we play to cannot detect a difference how much of a difference really exists.

If I were offering my opinion alone unsupported by any testing and any audience reaction then my comments could be called wrong however audiences cannot tell them apart and I established that in blind back to back real world testing.

Cornets do sound different to trumpets but how much of this is our choices in using mouthpieces that make them sound different and using technique that make them sound different.

I do like that they do sound different when played differently but then I have I believe established that they dont have to sound all that different.

Do feel free of course to question any posts of mine. I will try not to be too dogmatic.
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Seymor B Fudd
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 29, 2021 2:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Since I began my (amateur)playing career in a brassband (still do - same band)in 1957 I have read this long thread carefully - out of a genuine interest.
As I started to play 1968 in a 13 piece swing band I soon realized that if I was to get heard I had to switch to a trumpet. Still loving the cornet sound I bought myself a King Super 20 Symphony DB - not implying that it´s sounded like a cornet, but it was not notably bright (as compared to a lot of fine US trumpets that I had the opportunity to test) - however much more penetrating (than my cornet), if I revved up (also: I used a trumpet version of the 1 1/4C) Like a highway versus a country road. My contemporary section mates played on Bachs, Benges, Conns, far brighter and much more penetrating. Bigger sound.
So why did I not project as forcefully with the cornet? I think this depends on several things: the cornet (at first a B&H Imperial, Sally A mpc nr 1)in comparison, sounded muffled, tiny, "etheral"; next cornet, a Getzen Eterna, mpc Bach 1 1/4C did neither sound muffled nor tiny but still a trifle "etheral", and much, more "rounded", warmer; we listened to the British bands, had the privilege to be conducted by some of "classic" British bandsmen such as Mortimer, Ball, Brand, who all installed in us a certain approach to the brassband sound, that which is often described as the cornetty sound - singing, smooth, not "flat out", always that streak of. 'dolce' - country road with meadows and cows grazeing.
Then came the Wick revolution - and the cornet sound was again muffled.
Requiring much more effort, more resistance (though not tiny) - thus bigger differences again.
Where do I end up?: There are obvious differences in the very build, shape; there are differences when it comes to resistance - cornets, in my opinion have greater resistance but there are 'intragroup´differences;
some cornets "suck" more air; the mouthpieces (today)are deeper, often more V-shaped; the way you play the cornet differs from the trumpet way.

However: listen to Jim Wilt (From the safety of my...)To my ears he sometimes plays with a 'cornetty' approach - on his trumpet - but I think I should be able to differentiate him from Thomas Gantsch playing the cornet. These guys are outstanding.
Don´t know if this makes sense, or if I´m just an old romantic?
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Bflatman
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 29, 2021 9:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You are making total sense Seymor

The tonality you get out of an instrument is due partly to the tone concept in your head
partly the way you use air
partly the way you blow
partly the efficiency of your playing
partly the mouthpiece size and shape
partly the instrument tonality
and partly the strength of your embouchure and your control of that.

Chet Baker reputedly stopped carrying a flugel to gigs saying he could achieve a flugel tone quite easily with his trumpet if he wished to and he did exactly that.

Arturo Sandoval has demonstrated many times that he can radically change his tone by changing only the way he plays and not changing his instrument or his mouthpiece.

Here is a link to his doing exactly that

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rlJ6OiVLX9I

Begin viewing from 7.5 mins onwards to see and hear him change his tone with ease.

I have no doubt that many players in this place have more than enough skills to do this and all it would take is belief in themselves and a lot of practice doing it.

I believe this happens quite subconsciously when players change their mouthpiece or instrument searching for a different tone and after a while with a new mp or horn their own old tone returns.

What else can be happening other than small changes occur in their embouchure or blow that brings the old tone back.

I believe it is the same thing that arturo does but subconsciously without intending it to happen.

We get the tones out of the instrument that are in our head.

So why can we not use this to consciously change the tones we generate.

Arturo does it chet did it I have done it. Arturo and chet of course are and were far above me in skill.

I am not laying down any law here I am saying I believe we can get a range of tones out if this wonderful instrument if we work at it.
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Rwwilson
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 25, 2021 4:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm late to this discussion but thought that there could still be some value to my opinion. I am a trumpet player first but also play cornet, fluegelhorn, and french horn. I also collect and play vintage trumpets and cornets. In my opinion, the mouthpiece is the most important element in determining the sound of a trumpet or cornet. More specifically, mouthpiece volume. Early cornets, I have a 1906 Holton, came originally with deep V, large volume mouthpieces. My Holton, when I play it with its original mouthpieces, sounds much more more like a modern fluegelhorn than it does any of my more modern cornets played with their manufacturer's mouthpieces. I can simulate this sound if I play my 1953 Olds Recording cornet with a very deep Denis Wick fluegelhorn mouthpiece. On the other hand, there is much less difference between the sound of my Olds Super cornet and Super trumpet if I play them using my preferred trumpet mouthpiece (CG3). Some say a trumpet can sound like a fluegelhorn and I agree if the right mouthpiece is used. Try it for yourself. Wrap tape around a french horn mouthpiece (very deep v) and play it in a trumpet.
I'm not saying different horns don't sound different. Why else would I collect different trumpets and cornets. What I am saying is the sound of any trumpet or cornet can be markedly changed by changing the mouthpiece.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 26, 2021 1:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rwwilson wrote:
Some say a trumpet can sound like a fluegelhorn and I agree if the right mouthpiece is used. Try it for yourself. Wrap tape around a french horn mouthpiece (very deep v) and play it in a trumpet.
I'm not saying different horns don't sound different. Why else would I collect different trumpets and cornets. What I am saying is the sound of any trumpet or cornet can be markedly changed by changing the mouthpiece.

It can be done even without the tape. Just putting a French horn mouthpiece in the receiver and holding it in place will do. Intonation is horrible but it's a good indication of how different the sound can be.

For the most part I agree with your post. My own experiences with mouthpiece cups shapes have been similar: putting a shallow cup on a cornet brightens it up considerably and you can get a nice fluffy mellow sound out of a trumpet with a deep V mouthpiece. However, after a few weeks of trying the same mouthpieces on both a trumpet and a cornet (with a trumpet receiver) I noticed that the trumpet had a distinct 'sparkle' in the sound that the cornet didn't. The mouthpieces have similar effects on how they affect the sound, but using the same mouthpiece my trumpet sounds brighter and my cornet sounds darker. My guess is that at the extremes, there's just a limit on how mellow you can make a trumpet sound and the cornet allows a player to go beyond that. Which sound is preferable depends on the piece I guess (for one specific piece, I actually prefer the little bit of brightness my trumpet gives to the sound although it's traditionally composed for flugel).

And if you're really skilled (which I'm not), I have no doubt you can further bend the sound using your embouchure.
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Bflatman
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PostPosted: Mon May 03, 2021 6:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hibidogrulez

I like your post and it is very logical and quite correct but I would like to add something.

The difference between a cornet and trumpet is the result of many things some can be overcome and some cannot.

The mouthpiece, the thickness of the metal, the bracing, the position of the valve block, the bell size, the bell ring, many many things.

As far as I am concerned the basic design is very similar but the components and their detail is quite different.

I can take a trumpet and place a deep vee mouthpiece in it and then if I play it like a cornet it will sound much like a cornet but it wont sound exactly the same as a cornet because it has a different valve block position a different bell different bracing and different metal thickness and these all affect its resonance and timbre and tonality.

A trumpet can sound very like a cornet that is built similar to a trumpet like a long cornet for example.

Lets not go down the road of long cornets are not really cornets of course they are cornets and they sound like trumpets with a shallow c cup mouthpiece and they sound like cornets with a deep vee in them.

There is an element of "if I place a trumpet mouthpiece in a trumpet and a cornet mouthpiece in a cornet and blow the trumpet like a trumpet and the cornet like a cornet and make them sound different then they do not sound the same" Of course they dont sound the same and never will if you make them sound different.

Cornets have a huge range of instrument sounds from the traditional BBB Besson Sovereign cornet sound to the Conn 28a long cornet.

It is very difficult to make a trumpet sound like a Besson Sovereign but it is much easier to make a trumpet sound like a 28a, which is more or less a trumpet with a cornet mouthpiece.

Everyone seems to think that making a trumpet sound like a cornet is only allowed if it sounds like a traditional BBB cornet. The truth is many cornets sound very like trumpets so why cant a trumpet be allowed to sound like one of these cornets. It is a cornet if the trumpet sounds the same the trumpet sounds like a cornet

If it was asked to make a car fly like a plane and a man got a car to fly like a plane would he be told it was a fail because the car did not fly at mach 2 like a jet fighter.

The idea surely is to make a trumpet sound like any cornet that exists not just a specialist deep and dark ideal sounding BBB cornet.

I made a trumpet sound so like a cornet that nobody could tell them apart, but then I was told that nobody can have had enough skills to tell them apart.

If nobody could tell them apart when they were played at the same time side by side with the same piece, then they sounded the same. That was the brief and it was successfully answered.

A trumpet can sound like a bright sounding long cornet as long as we are willing to accept that the long cornet that is manufactured as a cornet and sold as a cornet is in fact a cornet.
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